“The more that we can be in the present moment, the more that we can see the intricacies and the nuances of what's happening where we are.” - Bethany Betzler
In this episode, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Bethany Betzler, Founder and Experience Designer of Hinoki Travels. After the death of her father in 2016, Bethany had an intuitive urge to visit Bhutan – and her transformational travel experience there changed the trajectory of her life in nearly every way. Since then, she began overseeing international partnerships and travel experiences for My Bhutan and completed the Global Sustainable Tourism Council’s sustainable tourism program.
As a community development consultant, Bethany has visited 32 countries – but prefers to return often to a select few. Bethany believes in the importance of going offline and discovering the wild places around us and within us. Through Hinoki Travels, she designs conscious, custom journeys to help you reconnect to yourself and your environment.
Christine and Bethany discuss:
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Bethany Betzler.
LOVE these soulful conversations? We rely on listener support to produce our podcast! Make a difference by making a donation to Lotus Sojourns on PayPal.
Are you a Soul of Travel subscriber? Subscribe to Apple Podcasts here so you don’t miss the latest episodes! —> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/soul-of-travel/id1552279594
Listener reviews help expand our reach and help us rise up the ranks! Rate and review your favorite episodes on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast app.
🌎
To learn more about Hinoki Travels, visit https://www.hinokitravels.com.
Connect with Bethany on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethany-betzler/ or on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/hinokitravels/!
Looking for ways to be a part of the Lotus Sojourns community? Learn more here!
Find Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community for like-hearted women.
Follow us on Instagram: @lotussojourns and @souloftravelpodcast
Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Bethany Betzler (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
“The more that we can be in the present moment, the more that we can see the intricacies and the nuances of what's happening where we are.” - Bethany Betzler
In this episode, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Bethany Betzler, Founder and Experience Designer of Hinoki Travels. After the death of her father in 2016, Bethany had an intuitive urge to visit Bhutan – and her transformational travel experience there changed the trajectory of her life in nearly every way. Since then, she began overseeing international partnerships and travel experiences for My Bhutan and completed the Global Sustainable Tourism Council’s sustainable tourism program.
As a community development consultant, Bethany has visited 32 countries – but prefers to return often to a select few. Bethany believes in the importance of going offline and discovering the wild places around us and within us. Through Hinoki Travels, she designs conscious, custom journeys to help you reconnect to yourself and your environment.
Christine and Bethany discuss:
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Bethany Betzler.
LOVE these soulful conversations? We rely on listener support to produce our podcast! Make a difference by making a donation to Lotus Sojourns on PayPal.
Are you a Soul of Travel subscriber? Subscribe to Apple Podcasts here so you don’t miss the latest episodes! —> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/soul-of-travel/id1552279594
Listener reviews help expand our reach and help us rise up the ranks! Rate and review your favorite episodes on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast app.
🌎
To learn more about Hinoki Travels, visit https://www.hinokitravels.com.
Connect with Bethany on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethany-betzler/ or on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/hinokitravels/!
Looking for ways to be a part of the Lotus Sojourns community? Learn more here!
Find Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community for like-hearted women.
Follow us on Instagram: @lotussojourns and @souloftravelpodcast
Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Bethany Betzler (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
Christine:
Bethany Betzler believes in the importance of going offline and discovering the wild places around us and within us. She's the founder and experienced designer at Hinoki Travels. Bethany created Hinoki because she had a firsthand experience of the transformative role of travel. After the death of her father in 2016, she had an intuitive urge to visit Bhutan. She followed her intuition and it changed her life trajectory in nearly every way Since then, she began overseeing international partnerships and travel experiences for my Bhutan, a Bhutanese travel company. She completed the global sustainable Tourism Council's sustainable tourism training program in 2019. Bethany has consulted with private companies in Thailand on community-based tourism and given presentations on the subject in Vietnam and the US. Prior to working in travel, she worked as a cultural event and media producer coached to small businesses and as a community development consultant, she's been to 32 countries, but prefers to return often to a select few. In our conversation, we talk about working in alignment with our values, the power of small group travel, and how group travel can still offer value to the intrepid traveler. We share from our own experiences traveling together in Switzerland and how that setting was a perfect place for us to deepen our connection and forge a friendship.
Love these soulful conversations? We rely on listener support to produce our podcast. You can support me in amplifying the voices of women by making a donation on PayPal. The link is in the show notes. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Bethany Betzler.
Christine:
Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm happy today to be joined by Bethany Betzler, and she is the Founder and Experience Designer at Hinoki Travels. And we had the good fortune of being, uh, I guess forced together on a, a pre-trip experience in Switzerland, um, which was a really great blessing because we had an, an immediate connection and got to have a really great, uh, experience that I think we're gonna kind of tap into the power of small group travel later and expand on that. But I'm so happy to have you joining me today. Welcome to the podcast.
Bethany:
Thank you so much, Christine.
Christine:
Thanks. Um, well, just to get us started, Bethany, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners and give them a little bit of an idea of who you are in, um, in the world of travel right now.
Bethany:
Yeah. So again, thank you. I'm really thrilled to be talking to you. As you mentioned, we had such a good connection and conversation in Switzerland, and so it's been great to be able to continue that forward. Um, as you mentioned, I am the founder of Hinoki Travels and we design experiential adventure travel primarily for small groups that gets people reconnected to their senses and reconnected to their love for the outdoor world. And so, um, we're working a lot in Asia. We're also starting to add some new destinations in Europe. Um, but primarily the idea is that people will travel together in a way where you're really present in the moment that you're experiencing. So, as an example, we utilize things like going on silent hikes for part of the trip, um, coming together to talk about what that was like, and just helping each other to actually enjoy what we're doing as opposed to just kind of rushing through it.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, and it was so great cuz we had so many moments where we were able to check ourselves as we were traveling together and kind of really put that into practice cuz it's something that you and I both enjoy. And so I think it was so cool to be able to travel with someone who was kind of seeking out those moments at the same time. And, uh, that was, was a great experience. Um, well, before we learn more about Hinoki and move into the rest of our conversation, I'd love to hear from you about how you got into travel and tourism and really like what sparked your curiosity for travel and then how did you know that this is the, the way that you really wanted to begin to create an impact in the world through travel?
Bethany:
Yeah, I came into travel at least I came into the tourism industry entirely by accident. I was working in community and economic development in rural places and cities, um, for a long time, primarily in the city of Detroit where I was looking at urban revitalization and helping local economies to create jobs and support small businesses. And I'd always been interested in the idea of, well, okay, if we can do this in American cities, for example, what would it look like to do this kind of work in rural and remote places, um, in the US and beyond? And I love travel, um, but like so many of us who came into the travel industry sort of by serendipity, um, my story was I essentially went on a trip to Bhutan and, um, there's a lot more to kind of why i, I chose Bhutan, but ultimately I felt this sort of intuitive urge to go there and really connected with the place I connected with the people who had organized the trip, who was a small nonprofit travel organization just starting out at the time.
Bethany:
And, um, you know, basically reached out to them after the trip and said, I'd love to help you guys with some of your, um, community, you know, basically anything I can do to help this business grow. Um, and then got laid off from the job I was working in and got another opportunity to work with, um, not that company, but a different travel company in Bhutan, um, that they, that this original nonprofit was in relationship with. And so, um, yeah, that was almost six years ago now. And, uh, really just traveling and, and getting to go to Bhutan was what got me in the industry.
Christine:
Yeah, I think that there's some of us that can't avoid this path. Like all these things continually line up to try to get us into tourism, which I think it's also so fun because there's so many interesting people because they've had such varied backgrounds that have come into this space. And I think it's, um, very different. And I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but so different from other industries where I think, you know, people choose a profession and they kind of stay in that area and it's not easy to just migrate into, like, you can't just all of a sudden become an attorney or <laugh>, you know, you won't, you have to have an M B A to be in certain positions or things like that. But tourism kind of, I feel like welcomes anyone who has the, you know, a broad realm of skillsets, but have more like this passion and personal mission, which we're gonna talk about a little bit later.
Christine:
I think that's what really unites so many of us. So I think it's always interesting to hear how people land. And also this, um, this idea that you really felt that Bhutan was calling you. I feel like a lot of us hear that from certain destinations and maybe similar to Bhutan, you would've been like, I mean, is that the place I need to go a lot? Not a lot of people travel there, should I pick a different destination to travel to? But I think a lot of people when they're hearing that like over and over and over, the best thing they can do is say yes, because there really is something lying in wait for them.
Bethany:
Yeah. And you know, when I hear myself say that, when I tell that story out loud, I feel like, oh, it sounds so cliche and just kind of like silly. But literally it was, um, it, my father had just passed away. He had brain cancer. He was terminally ill for about a year. And literally the next morning after the funeral, I was sitting on the front porch of my house in Detroit and like the word Bhutan just like flashed across like my consciousness, like in big capital letters. It was literally like the word and it just popped up out of nowhere. And then a couple days later I got an email from another organization that was like cross-promoting or co-promoting this upcoming trip. And it was within days when it was really a place I had, like, I really knew nothing about it. So it was a cool coincidence.
Christine:
Yeah, I have talked to other people too where they've said, yeah, I really think it would be interesting to, you know, this type of thing. And all of a sudden something like, this woman, it was Costa Rica and she had never thought about going there before. She's like, I love bike riding and like leading groups of people on adventures. And she was in a bookstore somewhere and talking to somebody and then in walks a person who was looking for someone to guide adventure and bike travel in Costa Rica, and she was there like, you know, a month later. And, uh, I just think it's so, it's so easy for us to demi dismiss something like that or to just say it's a coincidence or it's not significant. But I feel like if you trust those things, that's really where you're going to take it to the next level.
Bethany:
Yeah, absolutely.
Christine:
Um, well, kind of staying in that path, I really wanted to talk with you about working in alignment with our values because I think that's something that we immediately resonated with with each other is how important these things are that our personal values that have become our brand values, that have become our business missions, um, for people listening, how do you navigate that journey? Or how did you kind of start to conceptualize Hinoki as you moved into your own business and bring that into, into practice?
Bethany:
Yeah, the idea for Hinoki came from, um, while working in Bhutan and talking to a lot of people who, uh, were reaching out to us to plan custom trips for them. And more times than not, the storyline was sort of similar to my own as in, um, I just lost somebody really important to me. You know, my parent died or my husband died or something. Like, I'm going through a divorce or I've just decided to become, you know, an entrepreneur and I've got this big life shift and people wanted to travel, at least they wanted to travel to Bhutan for deeply personal reasons. Um, and so I guess it's really hard for me to decouple my own personal, um, feeling that travel is really a transformational tool for personal wellbeing and not necessarily even pursuing wellness travel where we're going to do massage or spa or anything like that, but really just to get out into the world.
Bethany:
Um, and so yeah, I mean, in terms of personal values, there's so much, you know, to talk about related to running a business and the, you know, kind of on the ground realities of what it takes to keep a business going and make it successful while working within your values. I think probably every entrepreneur struggles with this if they're, you know, in the business because they love the work, they love the world and, and want to do something good with it. Um, I think for me it's about taking time and we're a relatively new company and I'm, you know, looking at all the things that we want to do that come from this place of, um, a macro level of wanting to, uh, help people to connect and to help people in disparate parts of the world to be able to understand one another. Um, but we have to go slow.
Bethany:
If I put pressure on it to become a certain level of scale or a certain level of profitability in a short period of time, inevitably I'm going to end up cutting corners or making decisions that maybe, you know, help or bottom line, but don't necessarily help us reach that goal in the long run. So I think, like, you know, I'm a small business solo entrepreneur, I've gotta look at my own personal life and say, okay, where am I willing to make sacrifices in, you know, maybe how I budget or how I spend my time so that I can grow this in a meaningful way without that financial, um, you know, sort of like, uh, obligation mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And of course not every entrepreneur can do that, but when you are nimble and you're starting out and, you know, especially if you're starting out young, you can take the, you know, commitment on yourself to say, I'm gonna do this the right way from day one. I'm not going to cut corners. And maybe that means you have to be creative about income or you know, how you prioritize and how you budget. But just to speak very, you know, very honestly about that. It's, I think, essential in order, in order for us to keep our personal values in the business in the long
Christine:
Run. Yeah. I think, uh, one of the things that, you know, as you're talking about growing at a level that allows you to, to honor that, I think that's something again, in, in kind of many conversations have heard that there's that battle and that those decisions. So I think that's where it is really helpful to know your values so that you have a decision and you just check it up to your values and then you say like, okay, this is an alignment or isn't, and then do I choose this or not knowing the trajectory that that means for my business. And I think sometimes it's really hard because as small businesses, when you really need that financial input from a certain project or trip or aspect, like it's hard to say no when you, when you feel like you want your business to grow. And also in talking with people who have maybe said, well, I'll take this client and this thing right now because I know it's gonna allow this thing to happen later, but then they keep taking more of those clients and getting further away from where their original vision was, that at some point they either shift completely or they have to come back to that space that they were founded in.
Christine:
And I really think a lot of people did this over the period of the pandemic because they had a clean slate kind of to start again. And for people had already been in operation, they maybe now had a team and they had a little more financial resources so they could recalibrate aligned with their values. But I think it can be a really hard process. And like you said, when, when you it mean saying it might take me 10 years to grow to this space instead of two years to grow to this space, depending on the way I'm choosing to make decisions.
Bethany:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard. I think we also have to recognize that we work within a system that ultimately demands that we're, that we're producing at a certain output, you know, that we all have rising costs, we're all dealing with inflation. Um, we all have increasing, you know, sort of as we get into, you know, for me, I'm in my, my middle aged years, like we're all kind of moving into having more financial responsibilities. And so of course, like it's a little bit idealistic to say that you're only going to grow in a way that follows your values, but for those of us, or for, you know, those who are starting out and maybe do have that flexibility and that agility right now to try to think creatively about how they can grow in a way that it grows with their values. So as we're looking at, you know, future proofing the world and trying to do travel and other types of businesses in a better way that, you know, we're encouraging like the next generation of entrepreneurs to be thinking this way.
Christine:
Yeah. And I think that is also really valuable is just having these conversations because even if we're may making some choices behind the scenes than other people are only seeing what we're putting out outward. And so they don't know those struggles. And if maybe they're looking at up to you and your business as a mentor or something they're trying to emulate, if we don't have some level of transparency, then, you know, they don't see those actions and choices. And I think that's also really hard in a business because you're trying to create the balance of professionalism and authenticity. And I feel like solopreneurs get maybe brought into this in a way that other bigger businesses don't because it's also us, like the brand is our identity or you know, we are the brand. And so then, uh, it just becomes a very different space to be.
Christine:
And I think a lot of us try to go into it and just be like, here's our very professional business and we're very separate from it, and we're trying to compete with huge brands and, and like you said, kind of like their level of expectations. And then we're trying to have like immaculate social media and newsletter funnels and communications and all these things, but then it's just us. And so I think that sets unfair expectations for other people entering the workforce also then getting into that trap. But then you are trying to compete as a business, so you have to take on some of those cha those burdens really, I think. What has that been like for you? I mean, I know for me that has been a, a huge pressure and I bounce back and forth between what I should be doing all the time.
Bethany:
Yeah, well, for me, and I think for a lot of us in travel that run small businesses in many ways, I think that the travel industry is full of these beautiful, like boutique niche businesses. Um, which I think for me, I, I only aspire to be that I'm not looking to grow hinoki to some massive scale. Um, but I think having, um, a really close relationship with our audience, with our travelers is one of the benefits of being a small business. So I don't feel like I really have to pretend or put out some sort of perfect facade because we're not corporate. Like I have real direct relationships and conversations with people, and I think the kind of travelers that we want to attract appreciate that. And they're also trying to live their lives in a way that's more in line with their values, and they're also experiencing probably some struggles related to that.
Bethany:
Um, so for me, I think I worry less about like what kind of, you know, image we're pushing out and more so what kind of dialogue are we having with our audience so they understand that there's professionalism in terms of what we're offering, but even more so they appreciate that when they're going on a trip with us, it's really coming from a place of like, we want the quality of this experience to lead our business. And because of that, like, I'm not going to sell you a spot on a trip where we're just phoning it in or it's a cookie cutter experience because that's cheaper and easier to do. And so in some ways, I think actually exposing that, you know, struggle, if you will, is um, is helpful for just sparking the dialogue with travelers about the kind of experiences that we are giving to them. Yeah.
Christine:
Um, and I, I think that is also so relevant to the kind of experience that you're offering and also that, you know, that I'm offering that we're really trying to offer something that's so much more than a travel experience. Like we really, I think are are offering community and connection, like you said, and, and growth and um, like all of these things that can happen in the space of travel, but travel is kind of the, the umbrella that it, it's under. And so that does give us room to have all these other kind of layers of conversations that are really important to us and to help to communicate that with our travelers. Um, I would love to then kind of move into the power of small group travel because I think this is something that we both have found to be important. This is, you know, we got to witness this as we were talking about in Switzerland, kind of seeing what it's like to be in a group and watch a group kind of take its shape. And, uh, we have talked a little bit in the past about like the, the collective personality that emerges in, in a, in a group. Um, why do you think group travel is so powerful for, for travelers?
Bethany:
Yeah. Well, there are sort of the obvious things on the surface, which I think, you know, most people would appreciate the fact that you are getting to travel and share an experience with other really interesting people. You know, so in our case in Switzerland, you're meeting people from around the world and of course there's a shared interest. So, you know, when we're designing a particular experience, we're not just selling the destination, but we're selling a particular kind of trip in that destination, whether it's deeply experiential in terms of the culture, um, going into remote communities and, you know, eating wild herbs that you wouldn't find in any other part of the world, whether there's a culinary bent to it. Um, for hinoki trips, it's always about getting people into remote areas and getting them sort of as far off the grid as possible and getting to experience how communities that exist there live.
Bethany:
Um, so if you are attracted to that, you're probably gonna be traveling with other people that have similar values and are also attracted to that. And then you're different enough that there's gonna be a lot of amazing exchange because of that. And that's just kind of the benefit of it. On the surface, I think there are deeper layers, which I'm really interested in exploring, is how do we influence one another while we're traveling together? Um, so if I take a solo trip, which I also think it's amazing to, you know, travel solo and encourage that as much as possible as well, but if I'm traveling solo, it's just me in my mind that's experiencing it and I'm still experiencing the world through my own thought process, through my own point of view, right? If I'm doing it with other people, they're actually exposing me to so many other facets of what's happening in the present moment because of how they're experiencing it for better or for worse. So it introduces these new possibilities of how we see things. And then because there's a social component, you know, and we gather around the bonfire at the end of the day, like we can talk about that and actually get to kind of deep dive on some of the things that we all experienced and, um, reflect on that together.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, that is, so I love how that you kind of painted that picture of those different ways of the power of this experience. And, um, I, I particularly for me, love the idea of the contrast of social, of solo travel and social travel. I guess maybe we could call it that, um, because of that perspective. And that was something really early on traveling for me that I began to, to really see. And that was what pushed me towards wanting to create group travel experiences, is I would be traveling with people who were much older than me or from a different country or, um, a different socioeconomic status, like all these different things that shape our worldview. And then you have this experience and you're standing side by side seeing the same thing, whether it's like, um, you know, whales breaching or like hiking somewhere and witnessing a different type of flora and fauna that you've never seen before.
Christine:
And I'm engaging it in it in one way with all of my past experiences and context. And the next person sitting next to me is having a completely different experience. And for me, I have a background in sociology and like witnessing that felt like seeing something completely magical about the universe. Like how can two people standing next to each other have a completely different experience? And then, like you said, coming together after that experience or even in the middle of it and witnessing the different ways you're perceiving something is such an expansive process. And so while in solo travel, you know, you're growing in a lot of ways, you're doing it on your own, but I feel like it's amplified in a group because you're, you're also experiencing everybody else's growth and you can internalize some of that and it becomes really powerful and magnified.
Bethany:
Yeah, I think so. And also I think that there's something too about like, uh, encouragement in some of these moments is when we're traveling, it's like you are pushing yourself in ways that maybe you wouldn't push yourself on your own. Um, and I think it can be really healthy to experience growth alongside others who maybe are stronger than you in certain capacities, whether that's physical or, or the mental endurance of what adventure travel can, can, uh, require. And so like a lot of times I've seen some of our groups that somebody who's having a particularly tough day can actually get carried through the experience, even if the people they're traveling with don't say anything to them, they're still like seeing, okay, well everybody else made it up the mountain and they're fine, and I can keep going. And it sounds really simple, but like you said, to actually see that activated in real time with people is really powerful.
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And it, it is. And then also like the reaching the top together is also really powerful in a group. Like it's important on your own, but like if you know someone has had a harder time and you know, you, you see them reach that top, you also kind of experienced that harder time and that reaching the top, even if it was easy for you, like that group dynamic really had make it, uh, just so much stronger and just like cheering other people on. Even like you said, it doesn't necessarily mean it's like this huge effort, it's just this kind of mental exchange or a, a simple gesture that keeps everybody going. And then the celebration together is, is really great. I, I let a trip hiking a fourteener in Colorado, and like I know I, I am very sure that like one of us would've made it to the top if we were doing it by ourselves, but together we all made it.
Christine:
And there were definitely points where even myself, because we hit a a point where my hi, my fear of heights really came into play and I thought, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be the one that doesn't make this. And you know, they all stepped in and helped me through this part. And so yeah, like the, the, the pinnacle of that experience was really amplified as well because of what it took for all of us to kind of get through it. Um, I, another thing that I think comes, uh, into this conversation of group travel is that some travelers really just don't need group travel, especially maybe very adventurous intrepid travelers who, who do know how to go to Bhutan put the whole experience together, and they don't, they don't need someone to plan their trip. So they're maybe not going to be inclined to look for a group travel experience, but I would love to talk about why this actually is the perfect type of experience for that traveler.
Bethany:
Yeah, I'm really passionate about that because with Hinoki, our mission is to bring people to places that, you know, for example, with our northern Thailand trip, we go to villages that they're not even on Google maps. Like you won't find them in any blogs. They're deep connections to place based on our relationships that have been built over years with people on the ground. Um, and we've received, you know, invites to celebrate certain special festivals in villages where they've never promoted or advertised, let alone even just casually invited, uh, outside people to come in and experience that with them. And so I think it's really important for the very intrepid, adventurous, experienced travelers to also appreciate that for a lot of us in the industry, that our connections are just, are deeper and greater, and we have a lot of trust and rapport with the communities that we're working with on the ground.
Bethany:
And so if you're truly looking to get beyond, like for example, if, if you just, you know, want to go and, and have a solo adventure and just see where you end up, I think that's cool too for those who just wanna hit the ground and figure it out. But you probably will fall into a lot of the same places and experiences that, you know, a lot of people will go to, and it, it might be, um, satisfying on a certain level, but if you're truly looking to connect beyond, you know, the tourist experience that tends to be rather cultivated and codified in most estimations, then I do think that you need to look for experiential travel operators who can get you, you know, access to these places.
Christine:
Yeah, I think that's a really valuable point because I, I do think like we think we're doing the single on our own, but, but you do, like you said, you kind of, you still hear about the same things and, and you might be like a little bit off the beaten path compared to where most mass tourism is taking you, but you do still find yourself amongst travelers and backpackers and you, you are having that experience, which I've had and enjoyed immensely, like you said. But then there's these moments when, you know, like you're really a, you're really witnessing th something sacred and special because you find yourself as the only traveler there. And whether that's by happenstance or if that has been through an operator that has those connections, um, and I, I'm thinking of an experience I had in Thailand, which actually probably while I loved it, I would not choose to replicate because it was not probably done in the right way, but I was hiking and our guide got lost because they had to take a different route because of an incident that had just happened and they were trying to go to a different area.
Christine:
And, uh, in getting lost, we ended up like in a village where we probably shouldn't have been <laugh>, but we were invited to a wedding and, uh, taken like in the back of a truck to this wedding ceremony. And it was an incredible experience. Um, but again, like I, I don't, looking at it now, I wished that we had, you know, had permission and they were gracious to like, bring us along, but I feel like some of it was a little intrusive. Um, but those, those experiences are really powerful in my memory. Um, and the other thing that I think is so interesting about people who are a little bit more of an intrepid traveler jumping into a group experience, um, the, the emotional part that we were talking about and that like deepening of an experience for them, I feel like is really accessible because they're not navigating like first time travel discomforts with maybe food or language or environments or skills that they haven't had to use before. Like they're already comfortable so they can just take it one step deeper. How do you see that working in, in some of the experiences you offer?
Bethany:
Yeah, I think what's cool is in a lot of ways they become, I don't know if I wanna say leaders in the trip, but they, they do provide a certain level of confidence and capability that, uh, less experienced travelers or less adventure experienced travelers can, um, borrow from. And I also think that, you know, what's cool to see happen is that, and I don't want to like make it so hierarchical, like the less experienced versus the more experienced, everybody's bringing something to the trip and we, we usually will send out like personal invites to people who we want to have join, um, to try to like create that dynamic as well. So we're, um, very much like intentional about the people that we're bringing on the trip to make sure there's a good mix. But just going back to like the more experienced travelers that, um, if they're the right kind of personality who's truly there to share and to give and contribute to the full, um, you know, group experience, then they're going to be deepening the experience for the people who, you know, are, are not maybe quite so sure of theirselves or their abilities, um, to handle such discomforts.
Bethany:
And so I really like having that dynamic. And then I think on the flip side as well, that they're also gaining a lot from, you know, being in that role and being able to, you know, exercise that expertise.
Christine:
Yeah. And thank you for bringing up the point. I was really just wanting to kind of, I guess, encourage people who wouldn't choose this type of experience to consider it. But I do think, um, there's such a value in having, again, a diversity of experience because you maybe also have gone to the point where you're maybe numb to some experiences because you have traveled so much. And if you travel with someone who is experiencing some of these things for the first time, it, it like reconnects you to that space in your travel journey, or you will just witness something through them that you wouldn't have noticed or like a, a success or a win for someone in your group might have been, um, I don't know, like ordering off a menu that's completely in a different language where you maybe you've figured out how to do that.
Christine:
Um, so I think there's just so many different ways that these, that groups like teach one another and it becomes a very circular and shared experience and not, um, I don't know. I, I think that it can be painted in such a different way if you're looking at group travel in the context of mass tourism. And I think that's where people really like, kind of shy away from those experiences once they have been traveling more. And I, I just think that um, some of the most powerful experiences I have had are because of this, this group exchange.
Bethany:
Yeah, I
Christine:
Agree. Yeah. Um, well we have talked a little bit about, um, about growth and scale as a, as a business and entrepreneur and speaking about that in, um, the context of our values. But, uh, how do you think that looks, um, in today's kind of business age? I feel like there are so many more operators, like you said, that are boutique operators or small operators that are making that choice. Um, what do you think the value of that is as a business owner and maybe to travelers, um, because I do think that we're seeing so much more of it and then also maybe we could talk about what kind of support we need as solopreneurs to really create thriving businesses.
Bethany:
Yeah, I think we talked about this and we chatted last time and I've been, I think just like trying to get this message across to as many of my peers in the industry as possible that I feel like our greatest competition is not each other in the industry. It's this notion or this preconceived notion that, uh, travel operators, whatever, you know, you consider them being agencies, um, you know, et cetera. Like there's this preconceived notion that it's going to be cookie cutter travel, it's going to be overpriced, you know, unnecessary, that it's like this mentality that you're just gonna be on a bus following a person with a flag and you're just gonna see the usual sites. Um, I think it's so important that the mass audience, um, understands that there is this new generation of travel companies that are deeply experiential. Um, there are many of us, as you said earlier, that have expertise based on other things we've done in our careers and we're bringing that into travel.
Bethany:
We're collaborating across other industries. There's cool companies who are creating like culinary specific trips where you can travel with well known chefs to some places where they source inspiration for their cuisine. Um, there's so much happening in the travel space, I think in that, again, kind of boutique niche travel space that's super exciting. Um, so, uh, I don't know if maybe I'm like deviating a little bit too much from your question, but I think it's important to talk about that, not just amongst one another, but to try to, um, you know, amplify this whole industry that we're a part of and make sure that it's actually getting the word across to travelers. Cuz I'm amazed how many people I talk to, most of my clients have said, I've never booked with a travel company before. Like, we're not something that they're used to utilizing for their experiences.
Bethany:
And I think especially for the millennial generation and Gen Z kind of, you know, coming up next that they understand that this is for them. It's not just, you know, for an older generation who, you know, doesn't have the time or the interest in planning travel. So, um, yeah, and I think that touches on your question about support and supporting each other. Um, I wanna share about your business as much as mine because the more that people understand that we exist, then I think the more that we will get across that, you know, mis uh, conception of, um, you know, what the travel industry is today.
Christine:
Yeah. And I think that's super important and also like a huge mindset shift because normally you would be so proprietary about your business or you, you, it would seem like everyone is your competition, but even, you know, though, you and I have a very similar thought about travel, we're not offering anything re even remotely similar. So I, I would be like so happy to send anyone I know on a trip with you and so many other people who I know, and for me also to have these deep connections with other designers of travel, I can do that in a way that I know I'm, I'm like handing someone over to a very trusted expert colleague friend. And I think that's such a, a different way of doing business. Like you, in the past you would've been like, no, I'll, I'll make them fit into my mold because this is the customer I gained.
Christine:
But for me, I don't, I don't wanna give them an experience that they don't need that doesn't benefit anybody. And if I know that they're gonna like, have this beautiful experience with you, I'm gonna say, you know, like right now what I have to offer. It's, I just don't think it's what you're looking for, but I know this person and this person who would like really do that in a beautiful way for you. And I just think the time is right for that to happen. And then also, like you've said, we kind of become this larger collective if we can work together and, and then we can kind of compete more with these larger businesses who have a lot larger travel, you know, a larger group of travelers, um, if we can refer and, and work amongst one another. And then also the ability to co-create experiences. If you're not worrying about being direct competitors, you can be like, Hey, if we designed this together, we're gonna offer something incredibly unique. And it doesn't mean like merging our businesses or anything. We're just creating this experience. And I, again, I think this is such a different way of thinking about business, but for me it's really fun because this allows like this creative and community and all these things that are actually my personal values to be able to come into play.
Bethany:
Yeah, absolutely. And the more that we're a collective, the more that we can drive how travel is designed and created moving into the future, you know, so we're deciding that as opposed to just letting this larger, um, you know, wave of, of over tourism and mass tourism, like, rather than constantly going upstream of that, if we can get a bit more power in the visual space of our potential customers and travelers, then the more we can kind of steer that narrative towards experiences that means something a little bit greater.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, thank you for, I feel like that's such a, a great, just a, a great space for people to think in and um, like I really encourage people to think outside of the box in, in the ways of that. And I think the other thing that's really interesting too is, you know, you maybe I, I mean I find myself doing this all the time, so let's say, you know, your expertise is really like, uh, well, you know, finding these great communities and connections and someone else's strong expertise is like really figuring out how to do things in a way that, uh, allows you to have more financial gain in operating and someone else's zone of geniuses marketing. But we're also entrepreneur. So like we can't all be experts at all of the things. And so then you reach out to someone and you're like, Hey, can you look at my marketing funnel?
Christine:
I, it's really not working for me. And it, it's not, people don't say no very often. They're like, oh my gosh, I would love to be a part of it. And then they get excited about your business as well. And a again, like I would be just as happy to go into a travel trade show and talk about Hinoki travel. If someone is really curious about traveling in Bhutan and I don't go there, like I have no problems, but now because I've spent this time supporting you, I'm invested. So we're again, creating like our external like team and our marketing team and our, our, you know, I, I don't know. I feel like there's something that could really shift. And then also the travelers that you draw into that space are gonna recognize that, like, that level of camaraderie, auth, authenticity, and like, they wanna be a part of that. Like how cool would it be? Like they'll be like, you know, I met this woman and she told me to go travel over here. They're gonna then come back and say, oh, you know, I did travel with Bethany, but Christine had this really cool trip. And it becomes, then I think that's where we get out of that maybe competitive mindset.
Bethany:
Yeah, I love that idea.
Christine:
Yeah, I mean hopefully this can happen. I do see it happening and I, and I've been in the industry for a little over 20 years and I, I have constantly been drawn to this, I guess, sphere of boutique operators or solopreneurs or, you know, these, these small businesses that in the past, even if you were going to a, an event didn't have a category, is there like, are you a travel agent? Are you, what are you, are you a D M C? And you're like, yes, <laugh>. Like, I'm all of these things <laugh>. Um, and so I think that's a, an interesting space to be in as well. Um, well we have talked a little bit about, um, you know, some of the experiences that you offer and the way that those look, but I know you have a few group trips coming up later this year and I'd love for you to just kind of share a little bit more about your design process and how you, how you cultivate those itineraries to offer to really bring these experiences to life.
Bethany:
Yeah, so when we started Hinoki, so Hinoki is me and then a small collective of very creative individuals who have helped steer the vision for everything from our brand to our strategy for operations to how we design trips. Um, and what we started looking at in the very beginning was how does where we go affect our minds? And so this came from my own personal experience in Bhutan. I went to a very remote village in a part of the country where very few people go, if they go at all, they normally will trek through this village on a trail, um, that, you know, leads them through it. Maybe they'll stop for 30 minutes to have a picnic lunch and then they move on. Um, for me to be there immersed in that community for over eight days felt like a really long time. It was also the middle of winter, so we were snowed in.
Bethany:
Um, but it completely changed the way that I look at travel and how much can happen when we truly slow down. Like we talk a lot about slow travel, uh, but I really wanna push this where, go to one place, go to some place that's very foreign and really spend time in that community. Like, don't just go to one village one day and then maybe the next village another day. Like stay in one and see what happens because the relationships really deepen. Um, and I'm just using this story as an example. I'll kind of get back to our design process, but this was a huge impetus in looking at how to use adventure travel as a tool for wellness. Because what I noticed for me, um, and I have a background as a writer, and so I was doing some writing work while I was there and I noticed that in the first couple of days I was a little uncomfortable.
Bethany:
I felt a little nervous and awkward in front of the people who I was staying with and staying around, didn't speak the same language, didn't really have a translator available, you know, to me at all times. And, uh, long story short, after like day three we started to get more comfortable with each other, kind of utilizing, you know, casual, uh, types of ways of communicating just with gestures. Um, just sharing space, utilizing non-verbal communication, just being able to exchange, um, you know, energy through body language and, um, doing things together, cooking side by side. Um, so yeah, like after eight days of that, I noticed that my mind slowed down and I was deeply understimulated in a beautiful way. And my creativity was like I was doing so much writing and had so many ideas and it just, it shifted so many things for me mentally.
Bethany:
So going back to designing trips, we looked at, okay, is there any science surrounding this? Like, has anybody in the cognitive neuroscience space written about how a certain environment affects our behavior? And of course there is information about this, everything from the research that's been done in Japan around forest bathing and the impact of, you know, spending time in nature on our minds to um, even like how we seek sensation. So what might be an adventure for me could be, you know, treking in the Himalayas for 12 days. For you it could be having like a very distinct cultural experience where you're trying food that's, you know, very new to you and um, you know, spending the night in a place where you know nobody. Um, so we wanna look at like, how do we build a trip that utilizes a lot of these experiences and we can actually talk about what's happening to you creatively, what's happening to your mind, how is your mental wellbeing during all of this?
Bethany:
And when we started Hinoki, we were doing a lot of this custom, now we're looking at taking the information and the insights we've gotten from our custom travelers and building small groups experiences cuz we're seeing a lot of the same kind of patterns of these types of experiences that help people to spark their creativity or help them to deeply de-stress from whatever they're going through in their lives. Um, so a typical hinoki trip is, um, usually we will spend as little time in the city as possible. We'll get, you know, into the mountains or out into these remote and rural areas as quickly as possible. And we will bounce around a little bit, kind of depending on where we are just to be able to enrich the experiences. But we're not taking domestic flights. Um, you know, travel car time is limited. We really want people to be immersed in nature and very much immersed in the communities where we're staying. So we're utilizing, um, local home stays. Um, we are working with not just a local guide in the destination, but a hyper-local guide in whatever small community that we're traveling to. So we're really learning from them, from their families, from their neighbors, about how they live. Uh, so it's very much educational experience, but it's meant to be experiential. It's meant to be something that gives you a feeling as opposed to just knowledge. Mm-hmm.
Christine:
<affirmative>, oh my goodness, I love, uh, all of the things that you were just sharing, especially starting with that foundation and that understanding of like what is actually happening to you. Um, I have been doing a lot of research about that as well and it gets me really excited when you're like, oh, this is a thing. Like we've all felt it right and we know how powerful it is. And you're like, there has to be like, it seems like there's some foundation to this experience. And finding the science behind some of those experiences, I think like a little bit validates what we're trying to offer other people. Because it's really hard when you are just saying like, I've had this profound experience, I can see this shift happening in my clients. I, I know there is something here, but to be able to say like, this is actually what is occurring, um, I think is really, really helpful.
Christine:
And also, um, I think can ground travelers in a way if they really need that, like that data or if they're not just open to being like, this will be a transformational and powerful experience. Some people will just be like, I'm not really sure what you're telling me. Uh, I feel like I've had a hard time communicating like that emotional experience, but if you can say like, you know, this is the science of of forest bathing, you know, for example, because a lot of people are maybe intimidated by or confused by, or not aware of forest bathing, but if you can kind of walk them through this experience with that lens and this, this gives them some security in that experience in a way. So I think for me, every time I, I hear something like that, I get really excited. I was listening to a new story about the science of awe and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so good. And I was listening with my kids and I was like, this is, this is it. This is like what your mom is trying to do out there in the world is allow people to have this experience. And I'm like, it's a real thing. Like I didn't make it up. I didn't just have a one-off experience like many people are having and or seeking this type of experience.
Bethany:
And I think that in my opinion, um, attaches very much to this concept of mindful travel. And I know that mindful travel as a term is often used, described being mindful of our choices of making good, you know, responsible decisions about what we support when we travel. But I take it very literally in the sense of the mindfulness movement and not just meditation. Cause meditation is, is an experience of mindfulness, but mindfulness as in every day constantly showing up and being in the present moment. And I think that you know, what you're talking about in terms of awe and people looking for maybe some of the like scientific proof behind, you know, how travel can be good for our wellbeing. Um, it can also be again, very experiential where like they have the experience in the present moment. So because our society, I think, you know, through forces of, uh, advertising and marketing and just human nature maybe grasping for things that we don't have, right?
Bethany:
The more that we can be in the present moment, the more that we can see the intricacies and the nuances of what's happening where we are. And the more that we see how much is happening, where we are, even in just a very simple moment, the more we can experience that awe that you're talking about because we're actually, our senses are heightened, we're picking up on sensory information that we take for granted that we just don't register when we're constantly in our heads sort of grasping for the next thing. So if we can avoid the grasping and stop trying to, you know, go for something bigger or grander or whatever, then I think ultimately we will make more responsible choices because we won't need a luxury yacht. We don't need to have a private hot tub, you know, in a pool villa to ourselves. Like we'll be so much more satisfied with what's happening in a simple basic moment. And so therefore being in nature, you know, being in places that are sort of back to the land, that that will be luxury. And so it's a little bit tedious to try to unpack that, but really like when we're talking about these things like, you know, awe and mindfulness and all of that, I think it leads to actually really good outcomes for um, you know, what we're trying to do with sustainability and social and environmental responsibility.
Christine:
Yeah. And I think it's, as someone who's been really on that journey of trying to be present and not just when I travel, which feels easier because you're kind of in this bookend experience, so you can't really get too far out of it. You, you know, you're kind of, I kind of think about trying to get between two window panes and being in this really like narrow moment of an experience. So that's already kind of bringing you in and then when you're traveling, you know, maybe then you're really in this meal experience so you're getting, you know, closer into that space. But then trying to take that out of the travel experience has been harder for me. And so I am, I'm really trying to draw on that a lot and I find that then, like you were saying, the choices of the things that you think you need, like not that much fits between two window paints, <laugh>.
Christine:
And so what you really need is minimal, but because of the context of our society and we feel like the thing, all the things that we do need and uh, what we are told to strive for it, it feels like it's constantly like pulling you between these two spaces. And I almost coming back with your values, like one, once you feel that moment, you can kind of have something to check up against and it becomes easier. Like not easy ever, but definitely easier. And like this year all the time I, I'll feel myself flying out, especially as a business person. Like you're like, you have to forecast, you have to be in front. But then I'm like, okay, everything feels too overwhelming. So I'm just like, I just am like, be here now what matters right now. And then I can kind of operate from that space and dispel some of that overwhelm and then like move forward. But it, it's kind of the same thing, right? Like you just kind of have to keep shrinking things down to this present moment and experience and then that can become really powerful as well without all the other things forward and backwards.
Bethany:
Yeah.
Christine:
Um, well Bethany, I um, have loved being able to share this conversation with you here as always, but I'm also excited for other people to be able to join in with us and here, um, before we end, I would love to just um, have you share how people can connect with you best to be involved in your travel experiences and then also I have a few rapid fire questions to end our conversation.
Bethany:
Yeah, so we are on Instagram as Hinoki travels and LinkedIn as well as Hinoki travels. I believe that those will be linked in show notes, um, as well. Anybody can contact us info hinoki travels.com. We're a little bit low tech just trying to stay again, uh, more outside and offline as possible and running the business pretty streamlined. Um, so I just encourage people to reach out. Um, we do have some trips we're excited to share, uh, coming up this year and also some that we're promoting for next year as well. And um, I encourage anybody who's interested in traveling with us to reach out and then we can help place people in maybe the trips that would be best for
Christine:
Them. Yeah, thank you. And thank you for mentioning that too, cuz I think that's something unique is like most people just have all their trips out and they just want someone to book it and then they show up. And I think also both you and I love the idea of like really finding the right experience for people. And so definitely reach out and ask before, you know, cuz there's these, all these little nuances that might really allow for you to have the experience that you're really looking for and not be afraid to ask for the experience you're looking for too. Which is I think another consumer mindset that we have to shift. Cuz people are just used to kind of like picking it off of a menu and we're really trying to, to get away from from that. Like, we really want it to be this experience for you. We don't want you to have to be forced to choose a certain thing, like the certain shape of something. So, uh, okay. So, uh, what are you reading right now?
Bethany:
I'm reading a book called The Tree Line by Ben Rawlins. Uh, it's very interesting, uh, look at how the tree line of the Arctic is moving higher and higher north into greater upward latitudes, uh, which talks a lot about climate change.
Christine:
Yeah, we were, we really were able to experience that when we were in Switzerland as well, actually the, that our guide was sharing a lot of the, the shifts of treeline and animals and where you would've found them 10 years ago as opposed to today. And that was such, uh, a way to really experience what is happening that I hadn't recently. So that was powerful. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel
Bethany:
A lacrosse ball? Because I am a former professional dancer and I am always looking for a way to like get on stiff and obviously when you're on long haul flights and you're sitting a lot, you get stiff. So I use that for self-massage.
Christine:
Um, I have recently just heard that that is the best travel tool, so I have looked at putting that into my kit as well. <laugh>, um, to Sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while. Um, I know you love to return to destinations, but where is a place you haven't been that you would love to sojourn to?
Bethany:
Oh gosh. I, well I'd really love to go to Ethiopia. Um, I've spent very little time on the African continent and the first chance I get to go there, I'd love to go there.
Christine:
Um, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place that you've been?
Bethany:
Well, I've spent so much time in Thailand and I have an addiction to the red Thai bird's eye chilies, um, fresh ones, chopping them up, you know, adding in some fish sauce and a little bit of soy sauce and like, that's like just the perfect condiment and the perfect amount of heat that I'm like always craving since, uh, having spent time there.
Christine:
Yeah, I miss so much Thai food that I prepared or was prepared for me in Thailand. Like there's just no comparison. It's such good flavors. Um, let's see. Who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world?
Bethany:
Oh, very much my father. My father was very worldly, um, very macro in his perspective and, um, uh, didn't travel a lot necessarily. He was very working class and didn't necessarily have those opportunities, but, um, he was drafted in the Vietnam War and spent two years there in the central highlands and was among the indigenous, um, ethnic minority communities that were based there. Um, and that experience very much and the stories he shared about that have impacted where I would like to go as well.
Christine:
Thank you for sharing that. Um, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real alive or past, who would it be?
Bethany:
Uh, I absolutely would've to say my, my husband just because we don't get a chance to really have too many adventures together. I think it's like the case of the, you know, the shoemakers, uh, children's shoes where a lot of my travel is, you know, for the work and, um, he doesn't get to come along. So I would love to just have the extended adventure with him.
Christine:
Um, and Soul of Travel is a place to celebrate women in the tourism industry. Who is one woman that you admire and would love to recognize in this space?
Bethany:
Um, God, there's so many, um, amazing women in the travel space. Um, the very first woman who really influenced me in travel was my former colleague, um, in Bhutan. Her name is Cheche and she's the director of operations at my Bhutan, which is the D M C that I worked with there. And she's an incredible force of nature. She's extremely strategic, intelligent, um, very socially and emotionally intelligent. Um, she taught me so much about how to do right by clients, how to surprise people in the best possible ways, um, how to problem solve and she was also an incredible leader in terms of looking out for our guides and our local partners on the ground and making sure everybody was well cared for.
Christine:
Thank you. What a, um, amazing like, mentor to have to begin to shape how you wanna be in tourism. So I appreciate you sharing that experience. Uh, well thank you so much. I have really appreciated this and um, I'm always happy to speak with you, but it's extra special to be able to do it here.
Bethany:
Likewise, Christine, thank you so much and you've had such amazing guests on your show. I'm really honored that you chose me to have a conversation with you too. So thank you for doing this.
Christine:
Thank you.