Sharing About Places We Love with Aneeqa Ali

“I think one of the major things that has always been the turning point was finding other, like-minded women who were there to help, to support and to build that supportive community that helped me reach this point where I am now today.” ​​​​​​~ Aneeqa Ali

In this episode, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Aneeqa Ali, Founder and CEO of The Mad Hatters, an experiential travel company for adventure-seekers to journey into some of the less explored areas of Pakistan. She also created Root Network, an organization that strives to create an equitable and inclusive tourism industry in Pakistan. The Root Network sponsors the Women in Tourism Fellowship in Pakistan, supporting recent graduates of travel and hospitality in reaching their goals within the tourism sector.

Aneeqa shares the obstacles women face in Pakistan, both from her perspective as a traveler and a business owner in a male-dominated industry and patriarchal society. 

Christine and Aneeqa discuss:

• How travelers can inform themselves to break down misconceptions about places
• Starting a travel business as a woman entrepreneur
• Building community connections to promote trust
• Sharing about the places we love
• Bringing local voices into the travel conversation to limit the adverse effects of tourism
• Women in the tourism industry of Pakistan
• Helping travelers prepare for backpack and adventure travel destinations

Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Aneeqa Ali.

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To learn more about The Mad Hatters Pakistan, visit the website at https://themadhatters.pk/.

To support and learn more about The Root Network, visit https://www.rootnetwork.org/. 

Connect with Aneeqa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-mad-hatters/

Follow Aneeqa on Instagram or Facebook! 

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To read a complete transcript, see full show notes, and access resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to https://www.lotussojourns.com/podcast-episodes/episode118.

Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Aneeqa Ali (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.

Transcript

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Christine:

My guest today is Aneeqa Ali. Aneeqa is an avid traveler and cyclist. Her passion for traveling has taken her to the most remote corners of the country and made her fall in love with the beauty, heritage and diversity of Pakistan. She has an MBA in finance and worked in the corporate sector for 10 years. In 2017, she finally decided to leave her corporate job and give to her love for traveling and turn her passion into a career. Aneeqa formed the Mad Hatters, an experiential travel company for adventure seekers to journey into some of the less explored areas of Pakistan for a rich cultural experience. She aims to educate people about the beautiful landscapes, culture, lifestyle, crafts and cuisines of the country, the side of Pakistan which generally does not get the deserved limelight. In our conversation, Aneeqa shares the obstacles faced by women in Pakistan, both as a traveler and as a business owner in a male-dominated industry and patriarchal society. We talked about the ways community engagement as we travel can help to shift traveler perceptions. And she shares about root network and women in tourism fellowship, which she founded to create a more inclusive industry in Pakistan. Love these soulful conversations? We rely on listener support to produce our podcast. You can support me in amplifying the voices of women by making a donation on PayPal. The link is in the show notes. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Aneeqa Ali. 

Christine:

Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I am sitting down today with Aneeqa Ali, and she is the Founder and CEO of Mad Hatters, and she is based in Pakistan. And I am so delighted to be sitting down to talk about women's travel and adventure travel and community-based tourism, and all of the things that you have been working to create over the past few years. So, welcome to the show. 

Aneeqa:

It's wonderful being here. Thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this show and for providing this platform to share my thoughts about experiences and thoughts about traveling in Pakistan. And, uh, people often have very, you know, different kind of views about Pakistan because of the kind of news they've heard about it, because if the reasons why it's usually, you know, in the media. So I think it's always great to also listen to stories, um, from people who are living in that country to kind of like show the actual picture about how things are there. So thank you for that. 

Christine:

You're welcome. I'm so glad to have the space to be able to do that. And for me, it's a region of the world that, because I read so much, so I'm constantly reading something and it has been kind of a character in many of the books that I've read and enjoyed. So it's a place I've always wanted to visit, but I have also had to kind of wrestle with the image that has been painted by media and things like that as well. So even having both sides of it, I think it's so important to have a broader understanding, and I think that's why travel is so important. I think we both believe that is why travel is so important, because it allows us to really see and understand a place and break down all of those misconceptions and also break down barriers, which is something that you have been doing with your work as well. Um, before we get started, um, Aneeqa, if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about who you are, and then we'll learn more about your journey from there. 

Aneeqa:

Um, so I'll start off with a little bit background about, uh, what I was doing prior to starting the, my true tourism company, which is called the Mad Hatters, is so, um, I come from a completely different background, uh, corporate background. I have a degree in finance and banking, and then I worked in the corporate sector in investment banking. I moved on to telecom and technology and fashion designing. I've just like basically, you know, done it all. Uh, which is kind of like the reason why I was doing all of these odd jobs and switching one career to another was that the reason why I was like doing those jobs was just to make money. And I did not like really find a purpose or a calling in doing any of the things. I just like, you know, worked on my computer all day. And then I, if I wondered that, you know, what was the meaning or what was the input or like the productivity that was getting, I was getting out of it, or if I felt any sort of like a meaning for doing the kind of things that I was doing in those jobs, I did not feel that that fulfillment. 

Aneeqa:

So travel is something that was like always close to my heart. And I loved traveling. I had traveled all around Pakistan solo as well as with different tourism companies. And I always wanted to do something related to tourism, which is like, you know, turn your passion into a career, but it's also kind of like a long debate whether you should do that or not <laugh>. But you know, at that time it was like, you know, I want to, because I love traveling so much, so I want to do something, uh, simultaneously because like, it's also well much difficult to leave the comfort of having that full-time job and having, uh, you know, that salary credited into your bank account at the end of every month. And, uh, so, which is like, you know, I was like afraid of taking that leap, leap of faith. Uh, but I also believe that tourism is something that you, you cannot really do half-heartedly, and it requires full-time attention. 

Aneeqa:

So I thought of like also doing something it, like keeping my job in, like doing this on the, as a part-time thing. But then I thought that, you know, I don't want to be dying on, on my deathbed. I'm thinking that, you know, I wanted to do something, I wanted to try out something and I did not give it my all. And the worst that can happen is that, you know, I'll fail at this, it won't work out, but the world won't end and I will still have opportunities beyond this and going back to what I was doing before it. So that's how it started. 

Christine:

Thank you so much for sharing all of that. And I think for me, that really is the essence of what the soul of travel is. As I, I feel like so many of the people I'm fortunate to connect with have that thing that they, that lives within them that is being expressed through travel. And so it's, it is like, you know, that if you don't try this, it will be a, a major regret. And I think the other thing that is so interesting about that is so many people I think in this industry have had a, a whining path or have had all these different things they've done over the course of their lifetimes. I'm one of them. I also have studied like journalism, photojournalism. I took a class in genetic engineering. I have studied interior design, all of those things. And what I ended up learning about myself is just that this was a ways of learning about the world and learning about myself and travel really allows me to do both of those things. 

Christine:

But it took me a while to understand what I was looking for from each of those things to be able to land in travel. And so I think for people listening, that might be a really valuable reflection. And also, I think once we really understand what we want, we're able to show up and create something really powerful. And it is a risk. And definitely like you said, in, in travel, not knowing about having a consistent paycheck, obviously the last few years, even those of us who thought we had established careers and a consistent paycheck, realize the volatility of that. So I mean, that runs across the board, but you know, it's, it's just, uh, you really have to, I feel like in this, this profession, you really have to want to be here and love to be here, but it also creates a really unique community because of that passion. Um, I would love to hear from you about what it was like when you decided that you wanted to create, um, mad Hatter, the Mad Hatters, and what was the, what kind of feedback did you receive and what was that experience? I know that you're one of the first women to create a business like this, and, uh, I, I know there were many obstacles, but I would love to hear from you what that beginning part of your journey was like. 

Aneeqa:

Yeah. Um, so like, you very nicely put it that, you know, all of the things that you did before getting into tourism, you learned something from that. So like, if somebody asked me that, you know, if I have any regrets. So I don't think that I ever like wasted those years of my life and like the journey or the experience that I had there, they kind of made me the person that I am today. And the skills that I learned on that journey, they helped me. Although they're not directly, they might not directly be related to tourism, but, you know, strategy, finance, all of those things are very important for running a successful business. So definitely think that, you know, it's a, it's a complete journey and I wouldn't do it any other way. I think I would probably take the same path if I get a chance to go all over it again. 

Aneeqa:

And, uh, so like when I decided I wanted to do this, the first step was talking to people and, you know, asking them, I did not have any background. Yes, as a tourist I did know the country, but I think it's a very, it's a completely different thing running a tourism company and, uh, being a tourist. And there are like a lot of things that go into logistics, planning, financing, finding the right vendors, uh, marketing, you know, uh, designing the right kind of itinerary and making sure that you know, that what you're trying to actually create is also what people want because, uh, they can often be a mismatch. You might, you know, want to idolize things that, and come from that like perfectionist kind of mindset that, you know, I've thought of this like perfect model and I know because in my head this makes sense, but when you put it out in the world, uh, there's a lot of feedback that comes back and you have to take into account that maybe the first, uh, draft was not the final draft or the final thing that you ended up, uh, to, uh, but yeah, of course, like there were a lot of people who told me that I should not even get into this and not even think about getting into this because this is not a women's world. 

Aneeqa:

Um, if you look at the tourism industry of Pakistan, so you won't really find any female tour guides or, uh, tour operators, hotel managers or transporters. So like overall goal infrastructure, it's just like a world of men. And, um, so navigating in that space. Um, so I mean, yes, you can say that, fine, I want to run a tourism company, but you cannot do that in isolation. Travel is something that, you know, that brings people together. And if, uh, in a service industry, hospitality, it's all about people. It's all about, you know, community and meeting. Uh, so this is not something that can be done in silos or isolation. You have to work with all the other people. And like all of the other people that I had to work with, they were all men and men who were not happy to see women coming into this area because it was also like taking their maybe, you know, their space away. 

Aneeqa:

And then, uh, I mean, I was a competitor for them, so maybe that was also a reason that they did not want somebody else. They were like, no, this is like, let us just do it because we know this is how it has to be done. Um, so that was kind of the feedback and they were like, even if you want to do it, maybe you should look for a male partner who should like, help you with certain aspects of the business because, you know, women cannot just like do it all. And, um, true point, I even like considered doing that, and I thought that, you know, maybe they're right. And, uh, even if I have all the passion in everything, what if logistically it does make sense and it makes easier for me to run, uh, because then we can like divide the responsibilities and ways that, you know, I can't do the things that I'm good at and this person can be do doing the things that, you know, uh, they can add value to. 

Aneeqa:

But then I was like, you know, why am I even like letting all of this affect me and <laugh>, I, I can try it, maybe it won't work out, but like I said that I just like wanted to give it my all and, uh, but somehow it just, like, I think if you really are passionate about something, uh, and you really want to make things happen, then I think the universe also kind of helps you. It makes you so I think a lot of dots connected in the first few years. It was kind of like a struggle. And, uh, I was trying to figure out that what is going to be the right target market, what kind of tools I wanted to offer, what, what were, what was going to be the pricing and all of that. Uh, and there was like a lot of trial and error that happened in every aspect. 

Aneeqa:

But I think, um, there were a lot of good things. And the good things I think also happened by meeting like-minded people. And I did not plan those things. I did not even, like, you know, when I was making my business plan, I did not see that, you know, I'm gonna meet this person in this year and that's gonna change this, this way. But then I think one of the major things that ha that has like always been the turning point was like finding other, like, like-minded women who were there to help, to support and to build that sup supportive kind of community that helped me reach at this point where I'm I am now today. 

Christine:

Yeah, I agree that, uh, community is so important when you're on this journey, especially with other women. And I'm so lucky to be a part of many women's travel communities because of the conversations I have on a regular basis, but I, I, I know that I wouldn't be like continuing forward without that support. So I, I think that's such a great thing to, to mention and also really honor that you listened to that part of yourself that knew you wanted to do this and knew you wanted to do it on your own, and wanted to at least try and, you know, recognize that you could provide easier access and opportunities to certain things if you had a partner. Um, but just really wanted to, to go ahead and start this journey on your own. And I, I think we get a lot of those messages as entrepreneurs of, you know, if you did this thing this way, it would be easier if you just did this, like this person. 

Christine:

Um, and so much of that comes back to listening to that part of you that ignited this stream in the first place. And, um, I think that that can be, uh, a really attest to many people who are creating a business. Um, so when you started out, well, first I would love for you to explain a little bit about the name of your business. I know for me that was something that was, uh, a really personal choice. I wanted to kind of communicate, uh, the experience. I wanted to tell a story, which is, you know, what many of us wanna do with our brand. I wanted to kind of tap into something that maybe people would feel or experience in my trips, but where did Matt Hatters come from you, and and why was that the name that you chose for your company? 

Aneeqa:

Um, so if you've read the book, Alice in Wonderland, this is a character that comes from that book, uh, this crazy guy who has this like crazy tea parties and invites people there and like wears all these, um, big hats. So, I mean, um, uh, so I mean, generally that book is about a girl who goes into a rabbit hole and discovers a new world, a new characters, and interacts with those characters. And, uh, I believe this is what travel does for you. Like when you're traveling to a new place, you're completely, uh, in a new world. You meet a new characters of that world. And, uh, so I think that's kind of like the inspiration. I like that book. And also you can also associate hats with tour, uh, the travel and my logo in the, in my Lo logo also, there's a girl who's wearing a hat and walking in the mountains. So it was kind of like, you know, a just combination. But also, funnily enough, a lot of people, uh, in Pakistan, they haven't read Alice in Wonderland, and they don't really get the context. So a lot of people, they just, and they don't even like read the name, right? And they're, sometimes people think that it's called the Man Haters. And they would ask me that, why did you name the company the man leaders or the Mad Hatters? I'm like, oh, cause it's not bad. <laugh> 

Christine:

<laugh>, that's so funny that they're projecting <laugh> their, their, their issues probably already with a women-owned business that's catering to women travelers. Um, but I love the, the idea of, um, of that exploration. I have heard you share this before, and just the idea of really using that book as a kind of a metaphor for travel was really great, I really loved that play on that idea and that story. So for me, that was really resonant. So I just wanted to give you the opportunity to share that. Cause I, I think, um, for me, again, bringing books back into the conversation that, that it was just something that I was really able to understand the idea of exploration and curiosity and magic and wonder. And I think those are all things that I, I love to cultivate in travelers as they travel. So, I love that idea. 

Christine:

Um, I know that when you began, you really started looking at domestic travel and eventually, um, international travel started to show up. Um, and that you have had a lot of organic growth. I know you were talking that you spent a lot of time trying to decide who your travelers were and what they would want and how you would market with them. But really you started to grow very organically and women have been seeking you out. Um, what, what did you do differently as compared to what was already be being offered to travelers in Pakistan? And then why do you think women have been seeking you out, and what have they been looking for with their travel experiences? 

Aneeqa:

Um, so, uh, like initially when I started out, I was not even planning to make women my target audience. I just wanted to work in tourism and share the kind of travel experiences that I like to do. And it was, uh, I mean, I still do tours for everybody. It's not just women. I do organize tours for men also. Uh, but since the very beginning, it's like, uh, like if I would post a public tour. So, uh, generally in Pakistan, most not just the people who are working in the tourism industry, but also the travelers. They're mostly men. And generally, if you look at the other tourism companies, uh, all the travelers, maybe like 90% of them would be men and 10%, or like in a group of 20 people, sometimes they would be one or two women, or maybe sometimes none. But like, when I started posting these tours, um, sometimes it would be all women who would sign up for the tours. 

Aneeqa:

And I was like, what is this? Like, there has to be something that I'm missing, and why are people, uh, why are so many women? Like, so like, it was kind of, people thought that, you know, women are not really into trekking or hardcore adventures. But even on trekking tours, I saw that there were a lot of women who were interested in those like kind of camping and trekking sort of experience. And I was like, you know, it's just a myth that people have thought that women don't want to these kind of things. And I, I just think that for a lot of people it was just the fact of having a woman on the other side and knowing that, you know, she's going to be reading this. And, um, I think a lot of times there's like comfort. I think women, I think generally have more empathy, but also when it comes to the service industry. 

Aneeqa:

And if I have faced those challenges firsthand that, you know, I know from a perspective of female traveler that what are the things that I have to look out for when I am planning a tour or for myself, then I can also think about those like pain points and try to minimize them for other women. And I think that's what kind of helped people connect with it, because all the people who just then traveled with me, they started recommending me to their friends, their family, and that's how it started. Uh, and also right in the beginning, in like, I think 20, I started this in 2017, and in 2018 I met, uh, a blogger, a female blogger from the US, Alex, and we started running these tours together, women only tours. And, uh, they were targeted as, uh, for women from all around the world. So some Pakistani, like expired Pakistanis, women also signed up for those, but they were like women from like the US, Europe, and like all other parts of the world who signed up for those tours, and they turned out to be a good success. And, uh, so I think that also kind of, uh, spread the word in the right community. And people just then started, uh, showing more interest in these kinds of experiences. 

Christine:

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think another thing that you do is really, you spend a lot of time traveling. So when we talked prior to this, you were sharing some of your itineraries, but some of them are quite long. And I think that is also really unique and different. I think, uh, not sets out to a destination to spend such a long time. And also the way that you, um, bring women and communities and community engagement into the travel experience throughout the whole experience. I think that is also, um, really appealing to me. But I also imagine appealing to the travelers that are being drawn to your experiences. Um, what do you think, uh, what do you find that people are really resonating with and really enjoying about the experiences that you've offered so far? 

Aneeqa:

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so I think another reason why the market kind of shifted from domestic to international market was also the duration of these tours. Like you mentioned that most of the tours that I offer very long, like 15, 20 days, 30 days. So even customized tours, most of some people just sign up for like 30 or two month tours. Um, so I like slow travel myself, not just like moving from one place to another, just at a very fast pace, but actually staying at a place, learning, absorbing, meeting with people, learning and just like observing how people in that area live their everyday life. Um, so that's the kind of, you know, travel I like to do. And, um, so this is also what we incorporated. We took people to places off the beaten path, not just the main tourist hotspots that everybody was going to. 

Aneeqa:

And, uh, the tourism infrastructure in Pakistan is also quite basic. It's just developing. Uh, we've had a very troublesome past with tourism before 9-11. Um, there were a lot of tourists who used to come to Pakistan, especially for like adventure travel because this is known as an adventure travel destination because of the high number of 8,000-meter peaks that we have. Um, after Nepal, Pakistan has the highest number of 8,000 meter peaks. And, uh, there are a lot of people who come to Pakistan for summiting those mountains. And those adventure lovers, they're gonna come to Pakistan no matter what. Whatever happens in this country, they, they're gonna come to summit those mountains. So I think, but even like before nine 11, that kind of slowed down. So there were like quite a few gap of years where tourism industry did not really get any attention from the government, from the private sector because nobody was interested in investing in this sector. 

Aneeqa:

They did not see any hope or like optimism. But then in the past couple of years, the terrorism situation improved the security risk, uh, risks that were there. They, they started improving. The government started focusing on improving the, uh, visa processes, which was like, it used to be more complicated before, but then it became easier for people to apply for visas. But they introduce the e Visa program. And, uh, also Pakistan started being mentioned in international publications like Forbes, kina, they started mentioning Pakistan as like the upcoming top destinations. So I think, um, generally the, the kind of travelers who come to Pakistan, they're backpackers, they're not the kind of travelers who are looking for luxury experiences. They want to see, uh, authentic travel experiences. So that's what we started incorporating in world, was we actually took people to homes. Uh, and we stayed in those homestays and those homestays were not like, that, were like proper developed homestays. 

Aneeqa:

They were just like people we knew from our travels. And we asked them that, you know, we are coming there with a group of women, uh, can you let us stay in your house? And they were like, okay. So I think having a women only tour, it also opened a lot more doors for us than, um, they would've opened generally if it was like a mix. Um, so even now when I go with a mixed group or like an a group of more just men, a lot of people are like more hesitant in letting men inside their homes because, you know, the women are there and they're not okay with, um, other men being inside the house. But I think with women, uh, generally the women of the house are more comfortable. Even the men of the house are more comfortable having a group of women. So I think that kind of helped us in creating this sort of itinerary, slow travel and experiential kinda element in the tools. Mm-hmm. 

Christine:

<affirmative>. Um, and how do you think that these types of experiences have helped to shift perceptions that people might have about Pakistan when they travel and when they're really moving so slowly and connecting? So I know you mentioned before that people were primarily coming because of adventure travel, um, and they were coming anyway regardless of anything that was happening. But as now more travelers are coming, I would imagine that they still are overcoming the things that they, they have been told about the region. What do you see shift in them as they move through the country with you? 

Aneeqa:

So I think, uh, what brings people to Pakistan for the first time is the landscape, the mountains. It's not just the mountains. Like people think that maybe Pakistan just has mountains, but, uh, that's just like one part of the country. There's so much, uh, history we have in this valley civilization. The, there's, uh, architecture from British Times, from mo times, from, uh, sick period, and they're like so many different, uh, kind of buildings and, um, heritage from like all of those periods. And then we have deserts, we have oceans. So it's like everything, uh, over here. Uh, but I think what keeps, uh, making people come back to Pakistan is the hospitality of the people here. And with this slow travel, they were able to experience that even more. So. Like, even if you're just walking in the street, they would be somebody who would be calling, like randomly call you in their house too for a cup of tea or dinner. 

Aneeqa:

Or even for like staying, there are a lot of people who just like, come here for like one week and they end up staying a month because they love it so much. And people just like, they, they become families for those people. And, uh, so I, I've often seen that even like people who come on my tours, they end up coming back again with like, other friends, or they just come on their own and traveled solo for a much longer period than what they came on for the beginning. So I, I definitely believe it's the hospitality of the people from this region that makes them come back. 

[Advertisement] Christine:

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Christine:

Yeah, and I think that's so important, kind of going back to talking about, you know, why we travel and why we're passionate about creating these businesses is really to share that with other people and help them to fall in love with the places that we love and to share, share that story. And so I think that connection is really, really important. Um, I would love to talk with you about, uh, root network that you founded to help create a more inclusive industry in Pakistan by really trying to bridge the gap for bringing local communities into the travel conversation and helping to reduce the adverse effects of tourism. Um, how did that come about and and what are you doing with the root network? 

Aneeqa:

Um, so Root Network actually came about during the pandemic. Uh, so during, uh, the pandemic tourism slowed down everywhere in the world. And, uh, and in Pakistan, in the northern areas, uh, mostly like people from that region. 80% of the livelihood depends on either tourism or agriculture. They don't have any other big industries to support themselves. And when the tourism industry shut down, they were just like, they were left with, without any livelihoods in that area. So even, I mean, even if you're not directly related to, in working in tourism, even if you're running a grocery shop or selling fruit, because like if there are no people that area, there's nobody who's gonna buy that product from you. So the whole area was kind of shut down and they wanted to, like, they, the government wanted to open tourism also because they wanted these people to not suffer and be able to make, uh, earn a livelihood. 

Aneeqa:

Uh, but opening their doors also meant, uh, swarming those places with tourists who could potentially add, uh, have added health, uh, risks in that area. And where the region that has such limited health infrastructure, it could pose a very big problem because they did not have very big hospitals where they could go or they could cope with, uh, this kind of outburst in that area. So, uh, and slowly, like after initially, like nobody knew how to tackle to, uh, in the, the pandemic and war tourism. But I think slowly and gradually, uh, tourism companies in other parts of the world, they slowly started to open and started making sos that, you know, what's the right way to work, uh, how to open up and like, not ma uh, still make sure that you're protecting yourselves and the communities that you're working with. So with the first project that we did that was, um, about, uh, awareness about, uh, covid how to follow protocols and how to make sure that, you know, by following those protocols, you were able to protect the communities and people around you. 

Aneeqa:

So that's how it started. And we started brainstorming ideas because we wanted to work in tourism and tourism, like I mentioned before, that the infrastructure is very basic and the government has other things on the agendas in a developing country like Pakistan, you know, tourism is not often on the forefront or like the priority where government spending is gonna go. So then all of these efforts have to come from the private sector sometimes to make sure that you are building the capacity to make sure that other people are able to cope in, uh, certain situations. Um, so that's how it started. And then when we, you know, started, we thought of expanding it and, uh, uh, starting other projects. And we, uh, another thing that we had observed in our tours, uh, um, generally while traveling was the lack of women in this space. Uh, if you look at the tourism industry worldwide, most of the participation, more than 50% of the participation in tourism industries is by women in other parts of the world. 

Aneeqa:

But if you look at those numbers in Pakistan is just 3%, and even those 3% women are maybe just like staff at hotels or doing any other like jobs where they're not even getting very paid very well for doing those jobs. So basically it's non-existent. Uh, there, there are no women in the tourism industry in Pakistan. And we thought of like, uh, developing that infrastructure because a lot of companies that were also reaching out to us for operating tourism Pakistan, they were interested in exploring that infrastructure because people want, uh, I've worked with a lot of international companies now and they often ask me that, you know, we want to have female porters or female guides, and we want to, uh, stay at female run home stays. And so, and we don't have that sort of infrastructure. We've just, like, through personal connections, we've found people and we, but still for like running proper tours for like multiple tours in a year for, uh, big number of groups, I think you need to work on developing that infrastructure so that, you know, there are loopholes when that happens and they're able to cater to that sort of capacity. 

Aneeqa:

And, um, so that's how the idea came about. And I traveled in different areas of, um, and started talking to people that, you know, what was their hesitation? Why did they feel that, you know, the women were not ready? So listening to their problems that what this problem was and how we could help them overcome those problems and work and find maybe hybrid sort of solutions and give them, uh, take them on board step by step and like, uh, slowly and gradually, not just like taking them to the most difficult part of the job, maybe from the right, from the beginning, but maybe starting from baby steps, just like coming on a day tour in a certain area for once. And then like, um, when their families felt comfortable for them being around tourists and running those day tours for a few years, maybe they will be comfortable with them running multi-day tours and traveling to other places also. So that's basically the, how the idea came about. And even now on the Mad Haters tours that are run, I take a lot of local trainee female guides from all of these different areas, and they come on board as trainees, and eventually the plan is to be able to train them to, so they could lead these tours on their own eventually. 

Christine:

Um, as you started moving around the country and talking to people about this, did you, did you find that women were actually really excited about the opportunity to work in tourism? Or what, what what were you finding as you started inquiring and trying to find people to bring into this network? 

Aneeqa:

Um, so yes, definitely there were a lot of women because, uh, like I said, that there are no other industries in this area. So mostly the men, they start working in tourism, but women when, like, they're done with their degrees, there's actually a university, a big university in Gilead that's offering, uh, bachelor's and master's programs and tourism and hospitality. And most of the, uh, people who are enrolled in that prog program are women. And when, like we reached out to that university, we talked to the women who were enrolled in that program. And it was kind of surprising that, you know, if you're take, uh, studying a four year program, doing a four-year bachelor's in tourism and doing a master's in tourism, after that you don't work in the industry, then why did you even, you know, bother spending that much time? And those were the women that we initially started the dialogue with an he wanted to ask them that, you know, if you've dedicated this much time to tourism, why don't you work? 

Aneeqa:

And sometimes the problem was that the families were not comfortable, and this is something that they just, you know, did for the sake of doing it. And they never had any plans of actually pursuing it as a career. Uh, some of them were actually not, they were just like pursuing it as a degree, and they did not, uh, they never had any plans of actually working in the industry, but like with some, they were like very excited about working, but they had problems, like their families were not comfortable or they did not feel confident enough for, uh, women to be interacting with tourists. There's also about, you know, different kinds of tourists travel to these areas. They're not always ethical or responsible. So most of the, uh, the limitations or most of the concerns of their parents was not because they did not trust their daughters, uh, it was because they did not trust the tourists who were coming there. 

Aneeqa:

And they were like, we were not sure if they're gonna be respecting our daughters and how they would be treating them. So, um, so then like a lot of them, they actually let them work with me. Even now, like they don't work with other tourism companies that they're not officially tour guide, but whenever I'm taking tour to these places, the parents, they know me personally, and these, uh, women, they join me on my tours. I think for that also, it's kind of like the connections that I have built within the community, they helped me, uh, kind of, uh, access that net network, but it's also, uh, the kind of tourists who join me on the tours and also because of the fact that it's mostly women, uh, that also these female tour guides have been feeling more comfortable interacting with them. And I think maybe in a few years if they interact with, um, a lot of, uh, the work a lot on these tours, maybe they would also be comfortable with going on mixed tours and also going on longer tours than they are comfortable with at this moment. 

Christine:

Yeah. Gosh, it's so interesting to think that there's such a large amount of women who are educated at that level to be a part of the industry that are then not doing anything with that education that seems, um, like such a, a gap and such a, a waste of, of that time and experience and expertise. So, um, I'm, it's really exciting to hear that you're kind of stepping in there and trying to, to bridge that and, and support those women in actually taking that step into having a career and not just having the education. Um, I just can't, that's a little bit mind-boggling to me. So that's really interesting to learn. Um, I know that you also have, um, kind of started to conceptualize, uh, women in tourism fellowship as a part of the root network. Um, can you talk about what you're hoping to create and who that might support? And maybe that's also a part of this, of this conversation as well of, of creating this more opportunities and engaging more women in the industry? 

Aneeqa:

Um, yeah, so the Women in Tourism Fellowship actually focuses on building this capacity of working with these like young graduates of tourism on like, even like other professionals in working in the tourism industry and engage them more fully in tourism. And, uh, it's, um, so like a lot of times, even after attending a bachelor or a master's program, they, they don't know about the practical realities of working in the tourism industry, and that's still because they haven't worked in the field. And I think tourism is something that you cannot learn in a classroom. It's something that you, a lot of things, uh, have to be learned on the go and pr. Uh, so I think, which is, this is the area that we want to focus on to give them practical on-ground, hands-on experience of actually working in tourism industry. So, uh, which happens with like some bit of tourism training in class training and then taking them on the field, shadowing them, and then giving them a chance to also lead tours and then eventually, um, for them being able to lead tours on their own. 

Aneeqa:

And, uh, we also want to also, uh, engage women homes, uh, running their home stays because tour guiding is something that's still a lot of people, um, are not comfortable with, but, but with homestays, women don't have to run it alone. They can have the support of their families, for example, if they, for parents are living in the house, or a brother or a cousin or whoever can help or manage that place, then it kind of becomes like a family-run operation and the women doesn't have to step into it alone. Uh, and uh, we felt that, like when I was talking to people, I felt that a lot of people were more comfortable with the idea of her homestay rather than just like the women going out and tour guiding and meeting tourists. So we thought of like working on these two side by side to build the confidence and build that sort of infrastructure to be able to, uh, give, give these women, uh, one the confidence to be able to work on tourism, but also the access to market because even, um, the women who were confident enough, or like even if their families were okay with them working in tourism, there were a lot of women who did not know where to go or where to find the clients or where to, how to market themselves or like, um, so all of these things are also kind of key in making sure that these, uh, they get a regular kind of flow into the work that they're doing and it just doesn't stop after a short period of time. 

Christine:

<affirmative>, um, I was just thinking, you know, now you've been doing this work for some time and we talked a little bit about what it was like at the beginning of your journey, but how, how has that changed now? What I what are you seeing in terms of the reception you receive professionally and also how many other women are, are entering the workforce and starting their own businesses, being tour operators, you know, kind of really engaging in higher level management or, or creating their own work opportunities. 

Aneeqa:

Um, things are definitely changing now then, you know, when I started this company, if I compare that time period to now. So I definitely see more women showing interest in working in tourism. Um, but still I think they're like very, very, it's just like a needle in a haystack. It's just very few. And even the ones who are, they're just like, uh, they're not doing it on a very big scale. They're just like running small kind of enterprises or likes, uh, doing just like tour guiding. And even that is a part-time thing. This is not something that they've taken on as a full-on career. So maybe in the future things are, but I mean I, I've definitely seen a shift in the way of like, people perception about women. And um, also I think generally all of the world, the global media and like women travel has sort of become a thing. 

Aneeqa:

And I think because it's all just like a global village, if a trend happens in one part of the world, it is bound to catch up in other parts of the world also. So if the travelers will coming to Pakistan, if they are like, you know, if more women are coming, then I think there has to be, uh, also an uprising in the kind of services that they get in the country and, uh, the people who are providing that service. So I definitely see that more women are gonna be entering in the workforce in the future. But still, I think it's, it's, the growth has been like, because generally if you look at the society, it's a very patriarchal society and anything that, you know, if you have to exist in public spaces, you have to go out of the comfort of your homes. It is kind of like, you know, a revolution in Pakistan. It's not something, it's a rebellion, it's not something that just happens naturally. It's something that you have to fight for. And even if you know women are ready to fight for it themselves, maybe their families are still not ready for them to, to do this. So, um, but I definitely see that the change has started and maybe in the coming years it will, I will, um, bring more revolution. 

Christine:

Yeah. How, how are you able to provide that level of comfort for international travelers? Because I think this is something that, you know, especially maybe coming from US or Canada or North America, this isn't something that we would, uh, experience on a daily basis. And so what is that like, and how, what kind of conversations do you have with travelers before they come about the experiences that they might have and how are mi maybe mindsets shifting towards international female travelers as well? 

Aneeqa:

Um, so I mean, I think it's very important to have honest conversations and let people know what the reality of this situation is so that they can come with the right expectations. What happens is that a lot of times things are kind of painted or you paint a very rosy picture of something, and when you actually come on the ground and see the reality of things, it's then shocking and you're not prepared for that re uh, reality shock. Um, so I think what I do is that I tell people in advance that this is the, these are the kind of problems that you can face here and not just like in the, uh, in because of the patriarchy, and this is it also because of the limited infrastructure, uh, because of the roads, because of the internet situation, because of the kind of hotels, the guest houses they can get over here because of like the lack of public toilets when traveling on long distances. 

Aneeqa:

So there are like lot of things that people, but like if you tell about, tell them about these things in advance, I think people, they always appreciate, uh, that she, they, they can come prepared. And like I said before, that most of the people come into Pakistan, they're backpackers and their adventure travelers who don't really, they're not really looking for luxury travel. Like if somebody wants a luxury vacation, that person is not gonna come to Pakistan. I think that's, that's kind of like, uh, an understood basic reality. And then like telling them your honest opinion and like giving them guidelines about like certain things about how to interact with the opposite sex, about how to navigate in public spaces, about the things that they have to be careful about, then I think it helps them prepare for traveling to Pakistan. 

Christine:

Yeah, I think that's also valuable. And it's so interesting cuz if you look at, you know, the conversation around selling travel and mass tourism, it's always selling kind of like ease and beauty and you know, this sense of relaxation. And so then it feels hard, I think I would imagine, and a lot of the trips I sell are similar, but to then say, I'm selling you discomfort and I'm selling you unease, you know, <laugh>. And so then it, it's a very interesting space to be in. But I also think a lot of people, like you said, are traveling for adventure, but they're also traveling for growth and understanding and connection. And I think that they realize that some of the places where you can have very impactful travel experiences are going to challenge you. So I think we're starting to have different conversations around travel, but I imagine that that that must be sometimes a challenge for you as well. 

Aneeqa:

Yeah. But it's kind of like a good, good kind of challenge. We actually have a form of gr groups, uh, like the women-only tour that I was telling you about that are run with Alex. There's a signup form for that tour. And in that form we ask like, it's a very long form and we ask them all kinds of questions about like the countries they've traveled to before Pakistan, if they're okay with using swap squat toilets, if they're okay with like surviving without a working wifi for days and like so many other things. And then like sometimes we've actually told people that, you know, you're, you're not ready for this tour at this point and we feel like, you know, this is not gonna be your cup of tea. You're probably not gonna enjoy the experience. And like, even like after this fill out this detailed form, we actually have a one-on-one call with the people who sign up for the torch who just to make sure that they know what they're signing up for and they don't come as like, you know, completely, um, not sure about what they're actually gonna do in the country. 

Aneeqa:

So, which has kind of like, uh, also help desk find the right kind of travelers that we want to work with. And also because most of the tourists, they come through word of mouth, it, it has itself kind of like filtered out the kind of people that we've been interacting with. 

Christine:

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, I have a similar process as well because I, I really wanna make sure that I am finding travelers that will enjoy the experiences I'm creating, but also the amongst the community that we create for each experience that I, I really want the right kind of travelers that are ready to kind of engage and be open. Kind of going back to Alice in Wonderland, being curious and, um, you know, playful and, and open and looking for all these unique types of exploration. And I, I think it's okay, and this also kind of goes against some, uh, business training that you would receive. It's okay to tell people they're not your ideal traveler, which it seems also sometimes crazy because you're going through all this effort to attract clients. And I, I think much like you, like the more you put that out there, the more you are already just kind of filtering the people that aren't a good fit. But, but I think it's really important as store operators or people offering services to, to feel comfortable saying like, this isn't the experience for you or for you right now. Um, I think it's, it's kind of empowering to be able to do that. Um, but I think also a little bit scary because it feels like not what we're supposed to do as business owners. 

Aneeqa:

Yeah. I think it really depends on like what was the reason why, why you got into this. Was it just like making money or like expanding your business? Like the market that I'm working with, it's a very niche market and I'm not really trying to reach out to the masses. I'm okay with working in this small niche because that's what I was set out to do right from the beginning. And this is, uh, if, if I wanted to make money there and if I want to even now make money, I think they're like a lot easier ways to make money than working with tourism, especially in a country like Pakistan, that's so, like travel generally itself is like very unpredictable and a volatile industry in itself. Like something like Covid or like other outbreaks that just massively affects, uh, travel everywhere. But working in tourism in a country like Pakistan where there's so many other factors that can also affect the, like, everything that you plan. So I think it's not like the motivation for like people are working in tourism, they can only do it if they're not redoing it for money or just for like the business, um, aspect of it. It has to be more than that. 

Christine:

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I also had a kind of similar conversation a couple weeks ago with a guest, uh, Julia Medina who's in, um, based outta carte Hana in Columbia and we were talking about that as well as really like understanding why you're here, who you're serving, how, how big you wanna grow, what the impact is you wanna create, and just working within those boundaries and not really getting tempted by or lured into like growing at a massive scale if that's not really what you set out to do in the first place. And maybe sometimes that's a constraint like you're talking about with all these other circumstances, but also it can be a very intentional decision to just say like, this is the type of business I'm creating, this is who I'm serving and I'm going to stay very niche and, and not really grow outside of, outside of those boundaries. So I think that's also a really valuable reflection when we're talking about creating businesses. 

Aneeqa:

That's, I think, and it's also been like very fulfilling. Like, uh, also like at the end of the day, like when you work in the hospitality and service industry, the only fulfillment that you get out of it is that when people actually enjoy the experience that you've created for them. And, uh, so after a good tour, like when people, you know, talk about it when they say nice things about it, then they say that, you know, how much great time they had in your country or how, uh, this tour has helped them change their perspective of about this region. And, and I think those are the kind of things that make it all worth it. 

Christine:

Yeah, I agree. There's nothing, uh, nothing more fulfilling than that than like witnessing someone having those experiences and hearing that feedback from them and knowing that you have been a part of that, part of their journey and what that will mean for them. Um, I think that's what really speaks to me as well. Um, well before we wrap up our conversation, Aneeqa, I would love you to just share how travelers who are interested in connecting with you can find you. And then, um, we also have, I have a few rapid fire ish questions to end the conversation. 

Aneeqa:

Yeah. Uh, so people who want to reach out to me, they can uh, go to my website, which is the Mad Hatters dot PK. Um, I also have an Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook account by the same name. If you look, if you search for the Mad Hatters dot PK, you have to add .pk at the end because there are a lot of Mad Hatters everywhere in the world, so if you add .pk, you'll find me in Pakistan. 

Christine:

Perfect. Thank you. Um, okay, so the first question is, what are you reading right now? 

Aneeqa:

Um, so write now I'm actually reading a book by Brene Brown and Tarana [Burke]. So it's about like black lives and short stories about how, uh, racism kind of affected the lives of a lot of different, um, black women. It's like sharing different experiences, not just women. Also men, there's some stories about men also. So I actually am listening to the audiobook, not reading it. 

Christine:

Yeah, I love audiobooks, uh, as well these days. So, uh, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel? 

Aneeqa:

Um, like the obvious ones is are just like, you know, your phone or like, these are the things that you're always carrying, but also a power bank and, uh, raincoat, I think. 

Christine:

Yeah. Uh, a rain poncho I feel like has become my most favorite add-on to my bag. Even if I have a rain jacket, I have found that if I have, you know, a backpack on or something else, I put like a rain poncho over top of it and it looks ridiculous, but it keeps everything 

Aneeqa:

Nicely dry. Like my bag can just stay under it and I don't have to worry about it. 

Christine:

Yeah. Uh, to Sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while. Uh, where is a place that you would love to sojourn? 

Aneeqa:

Um, I think I can like, think of like one place anywhere in the world. I think. I believe that, you know, there's no one place in the world where you can just like completely feel content that this is where you were meant to be. Even like, a lot of people ask me that in Pakistan, what is that place? Even inside Pakistan? I can't think. Every place I think has its own unique offering. Some places are good for maybe like, you like the mountains, sometimes you like the people, sometimes you like the beaches, sometimes you like the, you know, the history or the architecture of that place. But, uh, I do feel like, you know, I can never feel just like completely content at just one place. I want to keep moving around <laugh>. 

Christine:

Yeah. Well, that's a good profession to be in if you love to move around. Um, what is something you eat that immediately connects you to a place that you've been? 

Aneeqa:

Um, oh, chili fries. I had so many of those in Nepal recently, and there was like, so in Nepal they had so much spice in their food in Pakistan, we had a lot of spices in our food also. And people who come to Pakistan, they have difficulty coping with the spice level in Pakistan. But I think in Nepal, this is something that I struggle with myself, and spice is something that always kind of reminds me of the food that I had in that region. 

Christine:

Yeah. Um, I'm getting ready to travel with my three daughters for a year and we've been kind of at the beginning of this year started preparing foods from many of the places that we'll be traveling and, uh, my daughters were saying like, oh, we eat such boring food. Every other place has all these spices. Not, you know, not just spicy, but so many variety of spices. So it's been interesting to hear them realize that as well and just kind of understand what different food looks like and, and what that means for different cultures. Um, who was a person that inspired, uh, or encouraged you to set out and explore the world and pursue these dreams of travel? 

Aneeqa:

I think, uh, not just one person, but I think I've had a very supportive group of close friends or like a close kid community because in Pakistan, uh, just like having these kind of thoughts and thinking about pursuing something like this, you can't do that just on your own. So even then, even even if these people are not professionally involved with you or like professionally supporting you, just having that kind of moral support at the end from your family and like your loved ones around you, I think that has been kind of very, uh, helpful. And also like seeing other, like women doing great things in their lives and setting them as your role models that, you know, that I have like high standards to live up to. And the, I mean the, I can't really idolize just like one woman. It's just like women from everyday life who are so doing so many great things and you cannot just define that. Success can only be measured in a certain way and like only after you reach a certain status or is do a certain thing. It can be a very small thing that you do, but uh, it shows like how in the way that you do it, how you can be a role model for other people to follow in your footsteps. 

Christine:

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, I think that's really important as well. Um, let's see. Well, the last question I have, kind of what you were just mentioning, it's hard to to choose one woman, but this is a space for, uh, celebrating voices of women in the tourism industry. Is there anyone that you would like to recognize in this space? 

Aneeqa:

Um, in the tourism industry, like my personal exp in my personal experience is I've had like the opportunity to work with great women. Um, they're not from Pakistan, like in Pakistan, I haven't really, but like also like the tour guides that I've worked with from different regions, they've been like great. Uh, and doing the things that they do and kind of making me realize my dreams, but also like having the kind of supports, like Alex is one of my partners from the US and even when I, uh, Intrepid is one of my partner companies and Intrepid I was in contact with, uh, women, uh, who was like at that site and opened that, that gate for me. So I, I, I believe like a lot of times whenever I'm working with different companies or a lot of times it's the women on the other end who are opening those doors for me. So yeah, I think that's it.

Christine:

Yeah, just building those connections and community are so important. Uh, well thank you so much, uh, Aneeqa for sharing your journey with us and, um, I, I feel like this was such a great conversation and I really am grateful to have been able to spend this time with you today. Yeah. I would love to be able to have that opportunity. Thank you so much.