Practical Sustainability in Travel with Jo Hendrickx

In this episode, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Jo Hendrickx, Founder and CEO of Travel Without Plastic and Horeca Sustainability Solutions. Jo has worked in plastic reduction in the hospitality industry since 2007 after spending her career in tourism, from tour operations to health and safety auditing. Travel Without Plastic creates personalized toolkits and support packages for the hospitality industry with the goal of reducing and even ending the use of single-use plastics without compromising on the travel guest’s experience. 

Christine and Jo discuss:

• Ways to reduce our single-use plastic as we travel
• Jo’s experience collaborating with tour operators and collaborating organizations to eliminate and reduce single-use plastic items in Mallorca and Ibiza
• Plastic-Free Laos - a project that aims to reduce the top five single-use plastic in hospitality by supporting hotels, restaurants, and coffee shops
•  Hospitality goals in the context of plastic reduction and the considerations to be faced when it's time to scale

Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Jo Hendrickx.

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To learn more about Travel Without Plastic, visit the website!

Learn about Plastic Free Laos and reducing single-use plastic in Mallorca and Ibiza.

Connect with Jo on LinkedIn, or follow Travel Without Plastic on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook! 

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Jo Hendrickx (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.

Transcript

Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, social entrepreneurship, single-use plastics, single-use plastic reduction, tourism and travel, health and safety

Christine:

Joe Hendrickx career spans 25 years in tourism from tour operating to health and safety auditing. Since 2007, she has worked with accommodation providers, excursion suppliers, and tour operators to implement sustainability strategies at a practical level. Having worked on waste reduction since 2011, Joe founded Travel Without Plastic in 2017, which has since become a trusted name in the industry now creating personalized toolkits and support packages for hospitality businesses. She has a master's degree in responsible Tourism management and is the author of Rethinking Single-Use Plastic Products in Travel and Tourism, published by U N E P and the W T T C. In our conversation, Joe and I discussed her aha moment that came from what she refers to as the styrofoam breakfast. She shares what goals hotels are working to achieve in the context of plastic reduction and the considerations we face when it's time to scale. Our businesses love these soulful conversations. We rely on listener support to produce our podcast. You can now support me in amplifying the voices of women by making a donation on PayPal. The link is in the show notes. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Joe Hendrix. 

Christine:

Just before we begin this conversation, I want to share another podcast that I enjoy with you. One of the reasons I wanted to start a podcast is because I love listening to them. I think it is one of the best ways to learn, be inspired, and feel a deeper connection with communities and people that we love, who are authors, entrepreneurs, and travelers. Whatever you love, there is a podcast that shares more about that topic. You all know I love hearing about the transformational power of travel, and a podcast that I love for more of these types of conversations is the trip that changed me, hosted by Esme Benjamin, an award-winning writer, editor, and broadcaster based in New York City. The trip that changed me is about to launch its fourth season on May 4th, and features interviews with entrepreneurs, entertainers, activists, authors, influencers, and everyday travelers recounting the personal tales of life-changing travel experiences. 

Christine:

These are people whose lives have quite literally been changed by travel. Businesses have been inspired, love stories have begun, perspectives have widened. Life purposes have been found, and new beginnings have been discovered. She has spoken with one of my favorite repeat guests, Nikki Vargas, about the journey that inspired her to quit her job, call off her wedding, and pursue a career in travel writing. You'll also find conversations with Jacqueline Gifford, editor-in-Chief of Travel and Leisure, and Gail Simmons, well-known as a judge on Top Chef. They all share powerful experiences that shape their life's journeys. I'm also looking forward to hosting her here on Soul of Travel and joining her on the trip that changed me. Later this season, Esme shares biweekly interviews you can find on all the usual podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Just search for the trip that changed me and be sure to hit follow or subscribe. I hope you love hearing about these powerful travel experiences as much as I do. I won't keep you any longer. We'll get to our soulful conversation that is starting right now. 

Christine:

Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm really happy today to be joined by Joe Hendrix, who's the founder and c e o of Travelers Without Plastic, which is working to significantly reduce travel and tourism's contribution to waste and plastic pollution. And I'm really excited for this conversation because one of the most, I think, widely recommended tips for sustainable travel is starting with looking at reducing our single use plastics as we travel. And I'm just really looking forward to kind of diving more deeply into this subject and understanding the work that you're doing to help create this shift in the industry. So welcome Joe. Thank you for joining me. 

Jo:

Thank you for having me. 

Christine:

Uh, as we get started, I'd love for you to just take a moment and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about Travelers Without Plastic. 

Jo:

Yeah, sure. Thank you very much. So, um, as you've said, uh, my name's Joe Hendrix. I founded Travel Without Plastic back in 2017. Um, although I've worked in plastic reduction in tourism and hotels in particular since 2011. Uh, and I actually started out in the tourism industry all the way back in 1997, which I still feel sometimes. I say, well, you know, 10 years ago <laugh>, and then I think, no, it's been a lot longer. There's a lot more experience in there. And so I, I actually started out life as a holiday representative, which meant I met people in the destinations, uh, mostly based in Spain, uh, and helped them to enjoy their holiday, helped them to overcome any problems on their holiday. Uh, and then moved around kind of seasonally, um, if you like. And, uh, after that I moved into an office role, uh, about three years later after doing the holiday wrapping for, in a couple of different destinations and then got the opportunity to work in the health and safety team. 

Jo:

So that was really great. And that was when I started to really understand the operations in hotels and what they needed to do to be able to comply with the expectations of, it was British travelers at the time, and it became European travelers as as, um, time moved on. But it's, uh, back in 2007 then when we started to look at sustainability and in the Thomas Cook Group that I worked in, um, I was still based in Gran area, which is where I am now. And we got the opportunity to, to apply for a role in the sustainability department, which was recently created. And it meant to relocation back to the uk, which was, wasn't sure if I was gonna do it cause I really liked living in the Canary Islands. Uh, but we did, and that was kind of the start of, of really moving into the, into the sustainability role. And it was only after I left Thomas Cook, um, a few years later, that Child Without Plastic was actually founded in, in 2017. And, and we've gone on from there. 

Christine:

Yeah, we have a very similar timeline. So I also, <laugh> don't like to recognize that I started in 1997 and <laugh> also feels like 10 short years ago, kind of, or a thousand years ago after the last three years mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, um, and then also was doing my master's in sustainable, um, destination management in 2005, 2006. So kind of very similar like cases and ways that we were moving through. Um, and it's so amazing to, to kind of have seen so much change in the industry. Um, I think there's obviously we're seeing how how much room there is still to create change, but there really has been quite a shift in that amount of time. Um, you mentioned kind of, you know, how your flow and getting into sustainable travel, but when was really the aha moment that set you in this direction and when did you really understand the, the role that we were gonna need to play in reducing single-use plastics in order to create, uh, you know, a change in the industry? 

Jo:

Well, say we, back in 2011 when I first did a plastic reduction project with hotels, it was together with the Travel Foundation and that was while I was still at Thomas Cook. We had 26 or 27 hotels in Cyprus that took part. Uh, it was really successful. You could see the ones that really meant it and really did well. Had amazing reductions, not just in plastic, but on costs as well. Um, the, the hotels that paid it, a bit of lip service, not so much. So since that point, it's always been in my mind that the hotels generate massive amounts of waste, not just single use plastic, lots of other single use items, food waste, et cetera as well. But being the sustainable destinations manager in the Thomas Cook Group and working with all our overseas teams gave me the, to help hotels to, to work on that. 

Jo:

But it was really, it was 2017 when I'd left Thomas Cook anywhere. I left them in 2014 to go off and do my own thing and really focus on, on this type of, of stuff and, and be able to support hotels and the industry with general sustainability. And I was on a trip where I was doing some animal welfare auditing in line with the Abta Animal welfare standards. And every hotel I stayed in on this particular trip, the breakfast, it was one hotel in particular where it happened, but then it happened in the mall. But I went down for breakfast and everything was single use. It was a styrofoam bowl to eat your cereal out of with a plastic spoon that was wrapped in a plastic packet. And the paper, uh, the, the plates even were plastic. The cups were styrofoam for the coffee. The, when I looked around the buffet, there wasn't even anything fresh. 

Jo:

Even the apples were like wrapped in plastic film. And I just thought, my God, what is going on? This is just the, the biggest waste, the bin in the, in the restaurant. The lady came, she must have had to empty it like every 10 or 15 minutes because it was just so full of stuff. And I thought, I know we can do this better because we've done it before, like years ago in 2011. So it just set, set off the question really. And I asked the people in that particular hotel, not in a way to complain or anything, but just to find out why exactly is that the way that you would operate the business? And there was lots of different reasons around that. Uh, and I just found myself offering some potential suggestions. And then I told, well, I got really fed up and I went back to the room and I thought, right, what can I do? 

Jo:

I've only got half an hour before I need to go out and I'm gonna make a Facebook page and I'm gonna call it travel that plastic, and I can just get my frustration out and then I'll see how I feel when I come back. And I almost forgot about it, um, when I got back to the room at the end of the day. But loads of people had liked this page and said, this is brilliant. We really need this help. And a friend of mine who works with, um, uh, an activity hotel group where they offer a lot of outdoor, um, activities and facilities, and she actually said we'd quite like a little toolkit to be fair, to help our hotels to understand what's in your head. Um, because I've got a background in health and safety as well. So I could ensure that whatever suggestions we made, we, we didn't solve one problem and cause another, because there's not really much point in that. 

Jo:

So I was able to kind of sit down and think, right, this is how you would need to do this. So you tick the health and safety box, you tick the customer experience box, you reduce your single use waste and you know, everybody should be happy. So it, it came from there. So I created this sort of little toolkit for them. And then we made a generic style one so that people could download some of the guidance from our website. We costed it quite low. Uh, and interestingly it just, it, it then became, we got requests all the time to do, um, more personalized toolkits, uh, for people so that they, you know, they could really map them to their business and their brand and what they needed to achieve and that sort of thing. So it was, I call it the styrofoam breakfast moment cuz that's exactly what it was. That just I thought, I, I've got answers and it's not that difficult and I'm going to have to do something about it. And it yet, with no business planned, with no strategy with nothing, it went from there and, and we're still going five years later, which is brilliant <laugh>. 

Christine:

Yeah, I think, um, it's, it's so interesting. I think, um, many people actually really like fall into a business that way, right? Where you have this cumulative knowledge and a passion and you kind of create something that doesn't have an end goal in mind, but becomes the thing through which you start to, to work and solve a problem. And I think it's, uh, I think for me that's really exciting to see because I know then those people are working from a place that's of deep purpose to them and yeah. You know, and also we really need that when we're working in this space because there's not a lot of structure around exactly how to do this. And it takes a lot of, you know, personal grit to get through some of these informations. And so it has to be aligned with something that you really believe in. 

Christine:

And another thing that I found really interesting that you mentioned is that, you know, not solving one problem while creating another, and the realization that the use of plastics in the industry did come from a place of serving an initial need request response to something that was happening. And even I, I was just traveling last weekend and noticed apples wrapped in saran wrap in a, in a major like concierge room that I was in. And I was thinking same thought, like why, what is happening here? Why is that happening? What is the purpose of this apple in Soran rep? Like, I was so confused to be seeing that at this moment of time in this space that I happen to be in. But how do you kind of walk through that? Because I would imagine when you're starting to work with a hotel and consulting with them, you know, they, they do have the reasons that they have put some of these things into place. How do you start to have that conversation with the need that they, they are serving or think they are serving with how they can transition into another way of operating? 

Jo:

Yeah, it's a really good question. And it's funny because if you look back, when I was in the health and safety role, um, possibly, I actually even instigated hotels to use single use plastic because you couldn't use glass and things like that around a swimming pool or on a beach because if it broke, people would cut their feet because they're walking around without, you know, shoes on around a swimming pool. So originally, if you, if you go way back, um, a lot of single use plastic was used for health and safety reasons in hotels anyway, at least because the reusable options back then, and I'm looking at, you know, 2001, 2002 weren't very good quality. So you would have a reusable plastic glass and it would, they'd scratch a lot in the dishwashers and they'd just looked awful. People didn't want to drink from them. 

Jo:

Uh, so there, there was a lot of reasons that single use was the choice. Um, and we, if you look, if you fast forward now, there are lots of really good reusable options. And so this is where we, we trace it back with people and do exactly what you said, why at this moment in time do you believe that single use plastic is the right thing for your business? And a lot of the time it's not a logical thought process. So interestingly, um, we find a lot of hotels that say we have to, we can't put reusable slippers in the guest bathroom, uh, for instance, or the guest bedroom because they would think it's unhygienic because somebody else has worn them before. So my answer to that would be, but you'll going to launder the slippers. They will go through a laundry process in the same way that the dressing gown or the bathrobe, whichever way you want to describe it, and the towels and everything else that people will put into, you know, certain parts of the body that will touch those items, they're going through the same laundry process. 

Jo:

So why is the towel that's gone through that laundry process hygienic and the slippers that have gone through the same laundry process, why are they not hygienic? And you kind of see people go, oh, I never thought of it like that. Or reusable straws is a similar thing. Um, usually they say it's because somebody else has used it before me. But that would be the case with the knife and the fork and the spoon and the ceramic cup and everything else that goes into our mouths. Um, there's, you do, if you use reusable straws, you have to clean them properly. There are some like countertop cleaners that have a really high emitting sort of, um, frequency that can dissolve all of the, you know, anything that may be inside the straw, so you're not expected to wash them one at a time. So there's, there's really these illogical reasons behind it. 

Jo:

And once we can get to that and then actually say it's really, it's our way of thinking and people's behavior that we maybe need to change. So another good example are the single use saches, you know, ketchup or mayonnaise or something. And especially in the, during the pandemic, um, there was a, a wide agreement amongst many hotels that they were more hygienic because they were single use. But actually, if you watch how people interact with the sache, because you have to go through the, you know, the thing to find which one you want, and then you can't open it and you pass it to your, you know, your partner, can you open it? No, let's try another one. Can't even open it with my teeth. I'll put that back. And you think, my God, that's not hygienic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you'd be much better having a large bottle that's easy to serve and your staff clean it between uses because they're not going to clean all those saches. 

Jo:

And then you just see the cogs going and people thinking actually, yeah, we're, why are we thinking so illogic about things and take them on their own journey. And sometimes there are reasons that they may need to carry on using single use items, whether it's single use plastic or not, because of their, their customer demographic or what's available to them or the cost. Or maybe there isn't a very good waste infrastructure for them to dispose of what the alternative would be in those things. So we take them through all of those potential, um, you know, ways that they need to make the decision through that hierarchy almost kind of starting at what is the, what are the changes that you could make that would either take waste out completely, uh, where could you implement reusable or refillable options? If you can't do that, what's the next step? 

Jo:

And just kind of go through that hierarchy until we get to the very end where we might even have to say, right, for the time being, the best course of action that you can take is make sure that these items, whatever they're made of, don't become pollution. So we are disposing of them responsibly mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we sort of meet them where they're at because we can't, you can't force people to do things when they're not ready for it. But if we can take them through that logical journey and then get them to suggest what would work for them based on all the ideas that we can throw at them from the experience we've got and what we see working for the hotels, then we generally kind of forge a path that that works for each company. Mm-hmm. 

Christine:

<affirmative>. Yeah. That seems like such a, an amazing process. And like you said, it's, it's pretty empowering because they really are like coming up with the solutions with you or understanding the problem with you and it's not just, uh, kind of, uh, yeah. Very directed approach. It's not you just saying, here's what you should do, no reasons why, or maybe reasons why that they don't resonate with or maybe aren't applicable to them. It, it really is helpful I think, to do that. And then once you start on like examining one area of your business in that way, it might also open the door for you to question other things. And um, also, you know, it becomes an having an environmental impact, but I think a lot of times people would be surprised that it has a financial impact, that you actually can make choices that will be, um, better for your bottom line. And I think a lot of times people think it will only be the opposite when they're considering, um, more environmentally friendly alternatives. 

Jo:

Yeah, definitely. And it can actually be more expensive dependent on your mindset and your approach to it. So if your, if your approach as a business is, I'm going to take away single-use plastic straws or single-use plastic stirs, and I'm going to replace them all with single-use bamboo or single-use whatever, the wood, that is going to be more expensive because generally speaking, they are ever so slightly more expensive. But if your approach is, I'm going to take away the things that really don't add any value to the guest experience, and I'm not going to replace them because we don't need them, or the things that some people need will make them available on request instead. So this is a great way to do the hotel amenities, which not everybody needs. I mean, I go to hotels and I see they still have, you know, the thing to shine your shoes and you go out and you look at the people that stay in the hotel and there's not a single person with a shoe on, they've all got flip flops and you think, why are you still putting this in there? 

Jo:

It's these habits, you know, we've always done it. We've done it for 30 years. I'm like, well, maybe we could do an exercise where we have a look at how many amenities you have and how many you consume and what the unit cost is. And we work that out and we see which of these are actually adding to the fact that you are creating lots of waste. And look then at your customer demo at your customer demographic. Now it's changed a lot since then. You know, or people are coming in, trainers if they've got closed shoes, they don't need to have the shoes shine. So getting them to just, yeah, look at those habits that are fueling single use waste. And that's when, when they don't just want to make a straight replacement, single use for single use, that's when we can start to see the, the cost reductions. Um, but if they've got this mindset of, no, we must replace it with something similar, but from a different material, then probably their costs will go up. So it's very much dependent on their approach, whether they're going to save money or not. And, and we try to take them through that journey as well. 

Christine:

Yeah. Um, so I think this conversation has become more popular in the past few years. More and more people are thinking about it. So when you started your business, perhaps you were having one type of conversation with potential clients and now maybe a different conversation when they're, when you, when hotels are coming to you, um, where are they at? What kind of goals are they working to achieve? Have you seen that shifting, um, in a difference in that type of conversation that you have initially? 

Jo:

Yeah, interestingly, and, and you know, it depends geographically where some of them are as well. So we notice that where we are here in the Canary Islands, it's um, things happen more slowly. Um, so if it takes a bit longer to get people engaged, um, here, and people are coming to us very much at the beginning of their journey where, you know, you might even still find they've got the little plastic thing over the toilet telling you the toilet's clean. You know, we expect that anyway. You don't need to tell us if you go to the b Aric islands, they're very much advanced. So, you know, still Spanish Island still a very similar cluster demo, uh, demographic, but very much advanced in terms of where they're at. So we, we do get people coming to us to say, help us. We're at the beginning of this journey. 

Jo:

Interestingly, we do get hotels come to us that say we switched two other single use items and we've realized we probably shouldn't have done that because we don't have the infrastructure to deal with the materials. And now actually what we thought is good, it's going to general waste before the plastic was getting recycled. Now we are, we're just filling general waste or incineration or landfill, what can we do? We want to switch to refillables and, and reusables. So we have a lot of requests to help them put together, um, procedures really to be able to do that in a way that's going to meet hygiene standards and safety standards and still be staff friendly, I guess. So it's not adding lots of workload to the staff that have got to implement these changes and also guest friendly. Um, and interestingly, those that do very well operationally, um, can sometimes find it quite difficult to talk about it or communicate about it. 

Jo:

Um, whether that's before people are coming into the hotel, whether it's in the website, um, or whether it's when people are onsite. And so we get quite a lot of requests to help with communication. How do we tell people this in a way that seems exciting mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it doesn't sound like we've taken something away from them. Um, so we've, we've been developing some tools to really help, um, hotels to do that. We just recently put, um, a, a free calendar. We ju we just literally listed all the different weld days so that you could have a focus, something to talk about weld environment day, weld oceans day, weld astronomy day, if it's food waste. So not every, not everything all around plastic. Looking at really all those sustainability weld days that they could have a handle or a hook to go out with communications. 

Jo:

Um, so there was a free, very basic download of that. And then a very, um, cost effective, uh, sort of second layer to that where we've actually put in some really good ideas of what you could do yourself if you are a hotel, this is what you could do to get your guests involved, your staff involved, this is how you can be a responsible business, et cetera. So we found, yeah, communicating it, we're doing really well, but we dunno how to talk about it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is, is really shifted. And that was not happening at all five years ago when we started. 

Christine:

Yeah. I think that was one of the questions I was gonna ask you was, you know, if this was all industry facing information, if there's any consumer facing or how do you help brands com communicate to their customers? Because I've noticed as I've traveled kind of trying to pay attention to this as a customer journey, but also, you know, from a professional standpoint. So seeing some of those things and um, recently I was in Switzerland and stayed at a hotel that I thought did it so great. They had, um, like a, a metal board with magnets audit for, um, you know, replacing, uh, cups and they had glass cups and they had water, um, jugs that were glass, but then they also had, um, like just all these different ways that they kind of, it felt like instead of them telling me they were doing something sustainably, they were just showing me they were meeting my need before I knew I had it. 

Christine:

Like, they were very brilliant in me. Oh, wow. And everything was just kind of where I needed it to be without me thinking about it. And then also moving, like through their food line. You know, I, I noticed, you know, ev there was nothing that was single use, but then also they were showing, you know, this product came locally less than 20 miles from this hotel or, you know, thing. They were, I felt like they were telling me a story about what I was experiencing, but what I wasn't noticing was how they were layering in their sustainability initiatives in a way that if you were thinking about it, you would realize that's what they were doing. But, but they were really just enhancing my experience as a customer while providing that, that service. 

Jo:

And that's the way to think about it, is that I think if you do that customer journey and the people who are responsible for that customer journey are thinking about how to communicate it, it, you can just slot so many things in. So I think one thing I find quite frustrating, and I do try to get people to think a bit more openly about how they communicate is don't just have it on a little tab at the bottom of the website that says sustainability and take them off to a, you know, um, a really boring policy. You do need policies of, of course we do. You've got to have your policies, but you need to be living them. You need to be bringing them to life for the, for the people that are staying in your hotel, or at least that's what I believe we we need to do with them. 

Jo:

And that it, that bit just seems to be really difficult for so many to do. And like you say, when they do it well, it's like, wow, isn't that amazing? How many people would you tell about that hotel, you know, to say you should stay here. I went to one in, um, Amsterdam with, uh, a colleague about, gosh, might be four years ago now. Again, time flies, but they had so many really good communications. You, you know, you opened the wardrobe and even the hangers said like, you look great, you know, printed on them. Just these little things. I was like, no way. That's brilliant. If you spoke to any of the staff, like we asked somebody about, um, I think I asked them about one of the beers or something, uh, and they said, oh, we used to have such and such a beer, but it was, uh, there was an issue with it or it caused a lot of waste. 

Jo:

And so we've changed now to somebody else. And you think that, right? That's the bar staff that know exactly what's going on and linking it all back to we wanted to reduce waste. They had a little part in the reception where you could buy if you wanted to, a reusable coffee cup or your reusable kit or whatever it was. There was just, like you say, every need met without it being in your face and it felt genuine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it absolutely felt genuine. And so it was just such a good experience as well when you were in that hotel as opposed to a, you know, you could just be wake up anywhere in any place and you don't 

Christine:

Really know the story of where you've stayed. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think it really comes down to that storytelling piece, which is so important. And I think we're really realizing how much that resonates with people now as they travel. And it's another opportunity instead of it feeling like a burden or a lesson. It really is a, a place for engagement. And I think people get really excited when you create it for them in that way. 

Christine:

Hey, it's Christine jumping into this conversation for just a few minutes to talk about what else travel. Travel has the power to impact a person's life through soul searching. New cultural understanding perspective shifts, expanding the mind, pushing comfort zone, boundaries, spiritual awakenings, personal challenges, improved mental and overall health and personal growth both in and out of the workplace. These are just some of the beliefs I share in common with the Travel Coach Network and its founder Sahara Rose Devore. The Travel Coach Network is a woman-led company that is home to the world's only accredited travel coach certification program, as well as a directory of travel coaches and a membership community for travel coaches to continue to learn, grow, and support one another. I loved connecting with Sahara Rose and sharing a conversation with her here on the podcast. Make sure you go back to episode 85 to hear more about her journey from being a solo backpacker visiting over 84 countries to starting both her travel coaching and the T TCN businesses. 

Christine:

I'm excited to join Sahara Rose and several other women for the Women Thrive through Travel Virtual mastermind event happening on Sunday, May 28th. I'll be there sharing lessons learned through over 100 conversations with Women Changemakers here on this podcast. To sign up for the event, visit the travel coach network.com/events and look for the WT t t master find. If you are interested in inspiring others to live more mindfully and purposefully having the freedom to work for yourself, live and travel anywhere in the world, or turning your love of travel into a meaningful career as a travel coach, then the Travel Coach certification program is for you. I really love what TCN offers and join them as an affiliate. You should grab a pen and jot this down. I'm excited to share that Right now. TCN is offering a special promotion for the program, which rarely happens. This training is usually 1297, but for the spring sale it's only 5 99. The promotion runs between April 12th and May 31st. I'll share my affiliate link in the show notes and you'll be on your way to starting a new part of your journey. I hope to see you all at the Women Thrive through Travel event on May 28th. Now let's hop 

Christine:

Back to our soulful conversation. Another thing I wanted to talk to you from the context of your business, but in general, for people listening in to this who might be business owners or entrepreneurs, when you have a business like this where it's very individualized and you're working one-on-one with clients, um, but you have such a reaching goal, you eventually come to a point where you realize you have to scale or you have to look at another model for, um, creating education. And I know that you guys have ventured recently into kind of some more self-driven educational modules or supplemental education to partner with your consultation. Um, what has that growth place been like for you and and how did you realize that you needed to do that and in what ways you could kind of shift to expand? 

Jo:

I think I ca well I probably came to the realization a long time before I actually did something about it, to be fair cuz it's, it's terrifying to me and maybe to a lot of other people to have the responsibility of employing another person and knowing that, that you can continue to pay their salary. Um, and uh, so I toyed with that for a long time and it was once when we got, uh, traveled without plastic, got a really good, um, consultancy role, um, as part of an EU project. And the way that you are paid from an EU project is you get some of that money, um, a good chunk of it upfront. And I thought, right, this is it. This is the time where I need to say I'm going to use that now to get a member of staff, which once decided that that was a weight off my head. 

Jo:

But then it was, oh, now how do I find the right person? I don't want? Because if I go out and put on LinkedIn or Facebook that I'm looking for somebody to come and work at Travel Without Plastic, I would get hundreds and hundreds of responses because we're always getting emails through the contact form and people that find me directly that want to work with us. So I was terrified of that cause I wouldn't have the time to manage it. So I spoke to some very close, um, friends and colleagues that I know really well and asked them to suggest to people that might fit the role that I wanted to help me do that expansion. Um, but I didn't want it to carry on being that complete one-to-one focus the whole time because it doesn't allow us to have as much impact as we want. 

Jo:

So one of the things we've heard from our customers though is that it's actually the one-to-one and the, the sort of os know in their brand inside out that they really values. I'm like, oh, how can we do it? How can I make this work? So we are, as you mentioned, we're creating some sort of shorter bite size resources that people in a hotel or anybody in a hotel operation could go through in their own time. And so it's not a big almost, um, you know, like a massive big guide where we had a hundred pages before. We're chopping that right down into operational areas and making it really practical, hands-on, very easy to read information. And instead of then having maybe eight webinars on all the different topics that people want us to cover, we're going to enable them all to use those digital materials. 

Jo:

And then we offer like, um, an an hour dedicated q and a session. So we say, right, make sure you know, if you're going to get the best outta this, put at least 50% of your staff through the educational modules, which we're still refining so they're not already yet. Uh, but then get everybody on the call so you can ask your questions. So you still get that benefit of being able to say to me, you know, what do you think about these, um, knives and forks that are made from avocado skins or whatever, avocado stones or whatever they're doing. They, people have really random questions that they want answers to. So we're, we're making it, you know, so they can kind of go at their own pace, but they don't lose that contact. But that freeze us up. It gives us a lot of time. 

Jo:

It's gonna help us to be able to maybe do some more prerecorded webinars on the key questions that people want. So again, they can have that, but also for them, for the hotel, when you think about how many people move through a hotel staff-wise, it can be there forever then as the onboarding process. So you don't, you know, if you, I mean we did this before. We've had a, we've hold webinars through pandemic, as you can imagine. You know, not everybody gets to them on the day. You probably don't go back and listen to the recording necessarily. If we hold a workshop in real life and not everybody can get to it, that's it. The information's gone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Whereas if it's there and you've constantly got it to use, then that can be part of your training. Anybody new that starts in the hotel can do the module that's relevant to them. 

Jo:

And you don't have to keep repeating and paying for us to hold, you know, an hour webinar. So it works for everybody. So we're, we haven't quite got it ready to go yet. It it's probably going to be more around May-ish time this year where we're ready to be able to, to launch that kind of hybrid version. Uh, so we think that's gonna work really well for, for everybody and they'll get a lot more out of it, much better use of their time, much better use of our time and hopefully we achieve a lot more impact by doing that because it's just easier to to manage with the, with the couple of us that are in the team. 

Christine:

Yeah, and I think, uh, the one thing too that you've said I, I hadn't really thought about, but obviously in the hospitality industry, especially at certain levels there is a lot of turnover. And especially in the last few years, there's even higher rates of turnover and yeah, that's just kind of a sunk cost and lost knowledge that left out the door with that person. And it is, if you're trying to create a corporate culture or you know, this value structure, then it's gonna be really important that every person have the same understanding and you know, you ha all the bartenders ha are able to say that, share that same information or, you know, whatever it is. So I think it's, it's great to have these kind of modules that people can flow through, um, to continue to, to build that consistency. Um, one of the other things that I loved when we talked before this, you were talking about how you can get people to really understand the scale and complexity of this issue or kind of buy-in to the fact that there is an issue. Sadly, that's, that's still the case in some places and you've had some really creative ways to, to hold those conversations and I'd love for you to share, uh, one in particular you had mentioned was, uh, a session you held on a waste management site, but you've had a few other things like that. And I think it's, uh, <laugh> really creative for people to think about when they're trying to communicate, uh, and, and, and get people to understand these issues to get innovative in the ways that you do that. 

Jo:

Yeah, no, we, we were really lucky that the, the destination that we did that in, where the waste management site is, they actually have a visitor center and there's meeting rooms and they're quite massive. You can, you can really bring a lot of people and we organized quite a while back now, um, a visit for hotel managers and operations managers in New Yorker. So we decided we would do it at the waste management site. And they have a little monorail, so it takes you around the site on a monorail and they do a a talk through it. And what really works, because I think for everybody, you know, especially if you live and work in a destination where the waste management collection's very good, you're not seeing it piling up, you just don't see the scale of it. You know, even if you take it down to a housekeeper, maybe they do 10, 15, sometimes 20 rooms a day depending on where they're working and they throw out, you know, the little miniature bottles. 

Jo:

But it's from 20 rooms. Now if you take that for the whole island of New Yorker and all of the hotel rooms and all of the people, it's huge. But the housekeeper just sees the 20 that they do. So this the scale of the problem, when you try to tell it to somebody, they can't visualize it. So when you go to the waste management site and you kind of look into this pit that there is there, not only do you see, I mean it's meters and meters deep, but there are still people sorting by hand, which nobody expected. And they kind of think, whoa, they're sorting out waste from, this was a general waste, but there was so much in there that should have already been separated for recycling and it wasn't. And that's why the people are in the general waste center taking this out. 

Jo:

And one of the hotel managers said, how long is, you know, how, how long has all that waste been there? Like what does this represent is? And we were in July or August or something and he said, is that since the start of the season, which would be like April or May in Meca, and the boat said No, that's just this week. And you saw them go, whoa, okay, that's like I'm part of this problem and that is ridiculous. So that scale, you you, you almost saw the collar drain out of people's faces. They just realized how bad it was when you see it at that level and it just makes them think, right, I've got to do something about this. And then we don't want to lose that momentum. We kind of want to capture it. So a way to bring that back to the table in the hotel if you like, cuz you can't take everybody out. 

Jo:

The hotel's got to run is, I will often say, right, we'll come and do a workshop or even if we do a webinar, we'll get somebody in the hotel to organize it first off and they all sit in a conference room in their hotel and I can be here and I'll ask them to get me their consumption sheet for the year of things like individually packed butter if it's in a plastic pot or the individual miniature shampoos and put that amount of bottles onto the table if you've got that amount. Sometimes they don't. Or work it out and take it down into a week and put that amount on the table and do the same with the plastic cups and the same with the paper cups that are aligned with plastic that people don't realize and everything else. And then I have them guess, you know, how how much do you think that's worth? 

Jo:

What's that representative to us? And they'll always say a month, two months, we won't say day or a week, which is what it ends up being. So you can bring it back and you can even do it on site. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but get almost shock factor and then say to people, right, what do you think we can do about this as a team? What if, you know, don't think about somebody's going to say to you from the management team, oh we can't do it or we can't afford it. Just put every idea that you can onto that table. And then as a manager you need to take everybody's ideas down cuz they need to feel listened to, even if you are gonna have to discount some of them. But take those ideas down, let people contribute and don't, you know, just discount anything without having a talk about it and seeing if it'll really work because they come up with so many brilliant ideas or they'll say, but for me to do that, you know, reception or the people on the front desk need to know how to talk to the customer. 

Jo:

Brilliant. So now we're starting to make these connections because when you change in one operational area, other people need to know about it because it is going to have an impact. So if we don't have this well organized, then you are going to think people are complaining and it's not necessarily because they don't like what you are doing, but it's because you haven't explained to them what you are doing or there's been a change and what do they need to do. So yeah, getting it to do that. We've done beach cleans, we've taken stuff out to go and clean up a beach. You can do it really quickly. You can do like the two minute beach clean or something, you know, and, and it, it doesn't have to take a long time, but when they see how many plastics and other items are on the beach, that shouldn't be, and that take them out of the, if you can take them out of the room, you know, and do something a bit different. Cause I just think it makes people think differently. It opens your mind a little bit cause you're not in your everyday place of work. And it, it really works. We see that people really engage with it and they feel like they want, they really want to do something about it. So of course then they're going to support the changes because a lot of them will come from their ideas, which means it's easier for management and easier for everybody to, to be able to implement. So it, it does work really well. 

Christine:

Yeah. I, I love that. And I think, um, it, it does feel sometimes like an invisible problem because like you said, in so many places it is, we are, we're we're good at managing waste. So it does seemingly disappear and so it, it doesn't always feel like a problem, but to be able to understand the scale of things I think is really important. And so I am, I, I can only imagine sitting in that room and I'm actually planning on being in May and I'm like, my might be the only weird tourist in the world that asks if they can do that <laugh> tour while they're traveling there, 

Jo:

<laugh> you can, they'll let you go, they'll let you go in, you can book it, you can go. I, it's brilliant. I highly recommend it. It's fantastic. Yeah. 

Christine:

Yeah. I'm gonna be traveling with my kids. So I, I think that would be such a, a way for them to understand, you know, cuz this is conversations I have with them and we, we use, you know, reusable straws and water bottles and napkins and we have like bamboo utensils we take everywhere and they just think I'm crazy, but this will be the way for them to understand, you know, why. And I, I also was just thinking, you know, this is I think why travel is so important too. Because if we are in our environment where maybe this is a kind of a more invisible problem and we travel somewhere where they are really feeling the burden of this issue, I think it, it's, it's so important. Like, this is how we can create change. And, um, I traveled to Bali I think in 2019 and it was one of those places I had been waiting to see for, you know, for years and years and years. 

Christine:

And really what I came away from that trip with was a lot of heartache for understanding what this ha is looking like around the world especially. Um, it was after the rainy season, so actually a lot of garbage and plastic and stuff had just been shifted through the island into the ocean. I never swam the whole time I was there because it, it was, it was really not beautiful and I, I was so sad. And across the island they have a lot of initiatives to reduce, um, but I think some of it's not even their, their garbage that has landed there. And so, um, I don't know what do some of those kinds of conversations or, or how do you think travel really can influence people's understanding of this issue? 

Jo:

I think, like you say, when you go to places where you are not, you are not used to seeing so much litter, uh, um, and things on the streets or it's, it really is an eye-opener and I don't know if everybody would be the same as you, where they would maybe relate it back to, you know, perhaps some of that waste is actually mine. Because I don't know where the, you know, if I live in Spain or the uk I'd, I'd put it in the recycling bin or you know, I dispose of it responsibly, but I don't really know where it goes. You know, and these things are being highlighted more and more by, um, investigative journalists and that sort of thing. But I don't know if, if so many people necessarily make that connection. But I think the more, and like you've said in Bali, there's a lot of organizations there that are working to, to help people understand if there's a, if there's a way to kind of bring tourists into that in a bit like you are doing, taking your children, giving them the opportunity to have a fabulous experience, a cultural experience, but also just really bringing home, I guess in, in the nicest possible way when you, when you're on holiday, that, that we've still got some responsibility, you know, to, to these destinations and for in lots of other ways as well. 

Jo:

Not just really with waste. But, um, as you know, we did a project in, in Lao pr plastic re lao that we worked together with, um, GI Zed, which is a German development agency. Um, and Lao does have some issues with waste. You, you can walk down the streets and there's some really annoyingly tiny gaps between buildings where I think it's just where the land is divided between one building and another, and they're almost like, it is like a bin. Everybody throws everything down there, you know, the little drops where the trees sit in, you know, that they're always full of plastic and other waste. And, um, one of the things that they wanted to tackle with that, and they decided to look at was like the big five plastics, um, or plastic products as they called them. So water bottles, one of those miniature amenities, straws, cutlery. 

Jo:

So we worked with small restaurants, smaller hotels, cafes and those sorts of things to put together something called Plasticfree la, which is still running now. So we created, um, like a, a tick sheet, um, I won't say certification programs, it's not a full-blown certification, but it's a, um, they do the team that's on the ground, which are all local people, which was the idea was that we came in, we set this up, we did it with the input of local people and then the locals that still, um, live there and run this, they do inspections in the, um, in the cafes and the hotels and the restaurants. They help them, they give them support, they do. Um, so there's like a train the trainer program and everything for them. And then somebody else will come in and, and do that audit and they get a sticker in the window that says, you know, we're working really hard to reduce the, the plastics that we're mostly seeing out on our streets. 

Jo:

And I think when as a, in the travel industry, wouldn't it be amazing if the operators that were traveling to Lao or that were taking people to Lao would be able to say to their customers, when you get to Lao, try and support the places that have got the plastic free LAO sticker mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, you know, you could kind of, it's because the, the small cafe in LAO is probably not going to have that outreach and that level of, of, of opportunity to speak to international travelers, but the tour operators could mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think we could help, you know, make sure that when people are, are landing or when, when you are giving them their information, when they make their booking, that they know where the refill sites are, is there a refill app that they can download in the destination? Because there are in so many places, but people don't know about it and tell them the benefits of that. So I think there, there's a lot that we can do to sort of integrate this as part of the, the tourist experience, but it needs, um, a lot of joining together. It needs a lot of collaboration between the, the smaller businesses on the ground and the operators that are bringing those people in. 

Christine:

Yeah. I I think that that is such a good point is that it does have to become a broader conversation and that we can't really work individually to make the impact that we're trying to create. It just won't work. It will have a shoulder where it falls off and we, we just need to have everybody coming together to be able to create kind of that circular experience and, and have a larger impact. So I love kind of thinking about the ways, and, and I do think more people are, are really interested in those kinds of conversations now as well, that they are asking when they're coming to a destination, you know, what is the role that our company, like for myself with my tour company, I am always thinking what's the ways that I can communicate this? How can I create partnerships, what already exists that I can tap into, um, where are gaps whereas some innovation that I might be able to implement when I'm coming? 

Christine:

Which, you know, those conversations are always really fun too, where maybe an operator in a rural area assumes coming from the US that I'm gonna want bottled water and I want my plastic forks wrapped, right? Because this is the way they've been serving this cu this customer for years and years and years. And when I come and say I actually, um, don't want any water bottles, um, I would love to be able to refuel my water bottle along the way, how can we get innovative? And then like, they get really excited because now they have a challenge. They, they see that I'm engaging and thinking about my experience and my time there, not just coming and traveling. Yeah. And they have a solution for the next person that they can actually put forward before they maybe even ask about it, because now they're seeing that demand is changing. So I think, yeah, all these different ways that we have conversations are gonna slowly keep, create that, that greater impact that goes beyond the work we can do as individuals. 

Jo:

Yeah. But it's a, it's an individual thing that you've done that would spark the next step. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think we still, we can still do so much as individuals, we just don't see it because you, maybe you don't go back there again, but I heard, I was on, um, a carbon literacy course, um, last week and the week before, um, with an amazing lady called Jen Gail, I dunno if you've ever come across her. Uh, and she has an organization called Sustainable Ish. So it helps people, you know, to take small steps, not feel like they need to do everything all at once. And, and she does this great course and they talk about something called a carbon shadow. So you've got your carbon footprint, which is everything that you can manage in your control, but this carbon shadow, which could be really big because everything that you do that people see and you'll never know that they've taken an action because you've taken an action. 

Jo:

But you, so you, you're kind of not looking back on your shadow. You don't see it yourself, but it could be really, really big just because of some of the individual actions that you take. So I, I really like that, that way of looking at it because I think, you know, that one little conversation that could just spark up a whole new thing, like you say, it's, it's worth it and it's worth us all having those conversations in the nicest possible way when we're in a destination. And that's how travel that plastic started. Not complaining about styrofoam breakfast, but saying, what is it? How did it come about? Why is that the option? Is there something different that you can do? Is there a way that I could help? I know quite a lot of ways we could maybe suggest some changes to you and that sort of thing. And it was all done in the nicest possible way, but start in those conversations and look where it's led now. So yeah, I think we can do a lot. 

Christine:

That idea of a carbon shadow is really amazing. I think in general we're not aware of what happens behind us and I think it's really important to model that. Pardon me. Well, I have just a few questions to ask you to end our call. Uh, hopefully I can get through them cuz I just started <laugh> choking for some reason. <laugh>. Um, but the first one is, what are you reading right now? 

Jo:

Um, I was reading and I've just passed it on to somebody else, and I'm not gonna remember the name of it. It's about, um, gender pay gap. Hmm. It's a blue and red book. Oh gosh, I'm gonna have to find it. I can't remember the name of it. Okay. Uh, and I've just finished it and passed it on to somebody. Let me find that. Maybe you can put it in your notes. 

Christine:

Yep, that would 

Jo:

Be great. That's brilliant. Really, really insightful. 

Christine:

Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel? 

Jo:

Oh, my reusable coffee cup always won't go anywhere without that. And my reusable bottle and I have a, there's a certain pair of shoes that are just dead com feet to walk everywhere in. And I went somewhere once without them and I will never do that again. So they, they're the fair thing that go and I don't care what they look like and how battered they are, they go in, even if I don't think I'm going to use them. <laugh>, 

Christine:

Um, to Sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you lived there for a short while. Where is one place that you would still love to sojourn? 

Jo:

Oh gosh, that's a good question. Um, I think I would really like it to be, uh, and so not very far from me, but Morocco, I just love the idea. I've been speaking to a lot of people that have been traveling there recently and I've never spent any time there and I would love to spend a little bit of, yeah, a a bit longer and really understand the difference in the culture when it's only 70, 80 kilometers maybe away from the Canary Islands, but a world away in culture. 

Christine:

Yeah. And yeah, I have heard or have been in communication also with so many amazing, um, diff projects and community-based organizations and yeah, social impact initiatives. So I think there would be some really great ways to, to dive into that region and some of those as well. Um, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been? 

Jo:

Oh, um, I do, and I don't do it very well, but I do a vegetable doer, which is a Gambian dish and it's based on peanuts, but I think you really need Gambian peanuts for the proper flavor. And I don't have them here, so I do my best with it, but it takes me back every single time and I love it. Mm-hmm. 

Christine:

Who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world? 

Jo:

Hmm, that's a good question. Um, I would probably say I'm not a gr I'm not a big explorer, but since I was the age of two, my mom and dad have taken myself and my sister on holidays to different places every year. We've been really, really lucky. And my dad would always take a higher car, make sure we went out from the hotel, make sure we went off the beaten track, try to find some new places, and constantly always looking to see where could we go next so we could be somewhere new, learn something new. And it's probably down to those travel experiences that I actually, well it is down to those travel experiences that I wanted to be a holiday representative in the first place and go and actually work in the industry. So it wasn't enough. I remember coming home to them, it's a long answer, sorry. 

Jo:

But I remember coming home and saying to my mom and dad and, and even my mom said, you just need to go, because I was so fed up when I got back off the holiday and I was just like, I hate it for about a month. I was just really horrible person, depressed, didn't wanna be at home. I said, I think I need to be a holiday rep. <laugh>, I think my mom said, I think you do too, <laugh>. And then it kind of went from there and, and it happened. Yeah. Yeah. So probably mama and dad, even though we weren't explorative holidays, we were very much package holidays and I, I hold my hand up to that, but it definitely set me on that journey. 

Christine:

Yeah. I think just as someone when you're young and traveling, just that the way of knowing the world is bigger than the world you live in, I think it's really important. However that looks, I just think it begins to shape the way that you move through the world, knowing that it's something beyond your neighborhood or community or you know, the environment you're engaged with every day. Yeah. Um, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real alive or past, who would it be? 

Jo:

Might sound really cliche, but I'd love to go with my husband because we don't spend enough time together. We, we got together quite late in life, so we haven't spent as many years together as other people have. And we work really hard and I sometimes I just think, oh, I'd love to just switch off for three months, no phone, no nothing. Just go and see where life took us and do it together. 

Christine:

Yeah. No, I think that's a perfect answer. Um, soul of Travel is a space for honoring women in the industry. Who is one woman that you admire and would love to recognize in this space? 

Jo:

I would have to say it would be my ex, well my old manager, um, so her name is Ruth Holroyd. She was the person that gave me the opportunity to become the sustainable destinations manager at Thomas Cook. And from there it, my life completely changed. I think my direction really changed and the things that I wanted to do and had always wanted to do in travel wouldn't have been possible if she hadn't seen the, I guess seen that I could, I could do that role and I was the right person for it. Not necessarily on paper, not necessarily the right qualified person on paper, but when we had the interview and when she understood what I would be able to do and, and how I would want to do it, she gave me that opportunity. So without her, it uh, definitely wouldn't be where I am today. 

Christine:

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it's so important, especially when we're in positions of leadership, to be able to look for those people that can create great change and that have a lot of passion and drive and like move past, like you said, what, who's the ideal candidate on paper? Cuz I think the people that really bring momentum to an, to a a business or a company or organization aren't always the ones that can check everything off the box, every check, every box, but they're the ones that really wanna be there. And I, I think, I hope that some of these conversations also will help people to think that way and realize that there's so many brilliant minds out there that we can bring into these conversations. So, um, I appreciate your time so much Joe. It's been so fun to get to meet you and get to learn about your work over our past conversations and I really hope that people, um, get excited about all the possibilities that there are to create a change in this area of the industry. 

Jo:

Thank you very much having me. It's been really great to talk to you. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. 

Christine:

Thank you.