Fostering Women’s Leadership in Adventure Travel with Kathy Dragon

In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Kathy Dragon.

Kathy has over three decades of experience spanning every facet of the travel industry and continues to believe in the power of travel to bring about positive change in the world. Since she began in the travel industry in 1987, Kathy has been involved in over a dozen startups, with limited success and extensive personal learning. She’s been a founder of several of her own companies, including The Dragon’s Path Cultural Walking Tours, ActiveWomen.com, TravelDragon.com, and Whole Journeys. Personally, Kathy’s a bit of a tech geek, an enthusiastic photographer, and consistently imagines new business ventures, products, and opportunities almost daily. She's unsure of what is next for her.

Christine and Kathy discuss:

· The changes in the travel industry over the last 25 years
· What these changes have been like for women in the adventure travel industry
· How we can set out to create the changes we want to make
· Big Magic ideas and where to invest our time and energy
· How to work in a way that continues to spark inspiration and joy

Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Kathy Dragon.

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To read our episode blog post, access a complete transcript, see full show notes, and find resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to the Soul of Travel Website. 

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Connect with Kathy! Instagram / LinkedIn.

Discover your next destination at Whole Journeys. 

Visit Travel Dragon to find your next itinerary.

Get your copies of Kathy’s current reads: Build the Life You Want, Wonder Year, and Take Less, Do More.

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Looking for ways to be a part of the Lotus Sojourns community? Learn more here!

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Kathy Dragon (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.

Transcript

Christine: welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm Christine and I am really excited for this conversation today. I'm going to begin it with kind of a sentimental sappy note. And I was just telling my guest here, and for those of you listening, you'll hear who it is. And for those of you watching, you already know, and you're already excited.

Christine: But I was saying that I wanted to share our meet cute, which is language that I guess hadn't heard before. The kids hate when I say it, but it's just that idea of when you met someone for the first time. And kind of another context of they say never meet your heroes. But for me, I was really, I have been really lucky in this space, meeting so many women who inspire me that I've always been grateful to meet them.

Christine: And this was no exception. I was attending the Adventure Travel Trade Association event in Boulder that she was co hosting. And I So excited she was there and the whole time I was driving I was like envisioning what it would be like to get to talk to her and I'm like this kind of makes me laugh now because we've had lots of conversations since then but at that moment we had never met and I was so nervous and like I hadn't seen her and it was almost the end of the event and someone was like oh you said you wanted to meet you.

Christine: So and so I'm still hiding who it is. And I was like, yes. And they're like, she's over here. And so they introduced us and you were so receptive and welcoming and like open and approachable. And it was such a great reminder for me not to put people on a pedestal because it's not fair to them or to myself.

Christine: And So it was a really special moment for me and it continues to be special and I don't mean to start our conversation in an emotional state, but we've already been in that space and you and I have also had so much time to be in that space together. I'm really feel grateful. And many of my guests, including one of our mutual connections Christina Beckman has jokingly said when she's heard me talking to other people about being a guest, like, Don't be on the podcast with Christine.

Christine: She'll make you cry. But for me, that's such a compliment because this is meant to be a place where we talk about things that really matter to us and when it's coming from that space, I think it can and should be emotional because Like really that is the soul of who we are and that is the soul of travel.

Christine: So with all of that said I'm setting the space for this conversation and really, really happy to be here and welcoming Kathy Dragon to the soul of travel podcast. So Kathy, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Kathy: My gosh, I don't know where to go from there.

Christine: Yeah, it's okay.

Kathy: so great to be here. And you did, I did start tearing up. So I just, you know, I think you and I had a great conversation yesterday and I remember that meeting time. And I always feel like so thankful when people. I always think people don't really know me.

Kathy: And when people come up and they know who I am and I'm like, why do you want to talk with me? But it's just, it's so great to share passion around travel and around women's issues and around all we've gone through. So thank you. I'm so excited to be talking with you.

Christine: Yeah, thank you. We were just saying we should have done this interview on a trail because we have now since that moment had opportunity finally to travel together pretty recently in Peru and spent a lot of time on a trail having really beautiful conversations. And, and again, I'm just really grateful for those moments and that conversation.

Christine: So we're going to kind of jump into some of that today. We, as you said, we had a pre planning call yesterday that I also probably just should have recorded because we were talking about so many great and important things. But as we begin our conversation, I'll just introduce you a little and then give you the space to talk about what you do as well.

Christine: But Kathy is. The founder of Whole Journeys and Dragon's Path and focuses on soft adventure, hiking and walking tours language that I love, active foodie trips, which I was like, Ooh, that's such a good thing. I definitely want to do that. As well as long distance hikes and women's only tours and Yeah, so I'm just going to turn it over to you, Kathy, if you wanted to share with our listeners a little bit more about what it is that you do in the space of travel right now.

Christine: That's always a good caveat because we've done so many things.

Kathy: Yeah, I think what you said right now you that's what I'm doing. I'm doing whole journeys, which was the dragon's path that I started in 1998 after I left Country Walkers, and I put it aside for various startups, but I've always kind of kept it. And between 2012 and 2016, I started whole journeys for whole foods market.

Kathy: And when they sold, I took the company back. So it's just me. I'm a one and only person show. And I just do a few trips now. And that's been really rewarding. I hopefully do one or two women's trips a year that are just my passion. And I'm always going to new destinations. And I've been able to go to the Azores and Sicily recently, which kind of new for me.

Kathy: Yeah, and that's what I'm doing and trying to figure out what's next.

Christine: Yeah. Well, like I said, when I met you, I'd really been looking up to you for quite some time, apparently secretly, but that's okay. And one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, one of the things you talked about yesterday is kind of seeing the shift for women in the industry over the course of, you know, your career and my career.

Christine: And I know for both of us, you know, looking at 25 and more years ago. Being in a space, especially in adventure travel or conservation travel or education travel, kind of all these spaces intersected at that time, what it was like to be a woman in that space, which for most of the time it was lonely, or it was for me always questioning.

Christine: Like how to get to the top or how to add more value or how to be able to use my voice within the industry. I always felt like there wasn't a space where it should be. And which again is why I think when I would hear about stories like you and your business that you started, that I would really be drawn to them because I was like, aha, here are the women.

Christine: doing what I see myself doing or creating the impact that I want to create. But for you, what did that look like kind of being in startup mode or in the tech space or being in it in the space of adventure travel? And how does that compare to today?

Kathy: Yeah, good question. When I started my own company, I think I had worked for a couple different, I'd worked for Vermont Country Cyclers for many years and run North American tours and been a guide and then I had grown Country Walkers and so I was very confident. I don't know why, but that I could execute and I never really thought that they weren't my companies.

Kathy: I always treated them like my companies. But as those companies got bigger or were bought, I realized I didn't have the kind of the control that I wanted in terms of the product. So when I started my own company, I didn't really think about it. I was just like, Oh, I'm going to start my own company and it's all going to be fine.

Kathy: And there was a lot of there's a lot of backstory around that, what happened to me, you know, I was sued at one point, all these kind of crazy things happened, it wasn't that easy. But then I was my company was, I'd say, sort of acquired quite quickly to be part of a big dot com that was called wholepeople.

Kathy: com. And so I was on the executive team and there was like 200 employees and I had this little team of travel people and I'd never been part of a big, big company. Group of people. And as a woman and a woman in travel, not in natural foods or anything, I, I definitely doubted myself and I don't know if I showed up like as an executive and then when I went back to my own company, I started realizing that I really wanted to affect change through travel and I was so small that I probably wasn't going to be able to do it.

Kathy: So I was trying to move into the industry in different ways. So I. Started this company called ActiveWomen. com, and I tried to build a website and have all this, like, technology behind. How we could, you know, and you and I talked about a little bit about how women could share experiences around travel, around clothing, around destinations.

Kathy: And so that was kind of my first women leading startup and that didn't go very far. It was just me. But I started speaking in the industry first in adventure travel about the adventure seeking women. And I would say that people weren't very interested. And then I started speaking in a lot of other like J.

Kathy: Walter Thompson marketing on boomer markets. I started talking about women in travel and boomer women in travel or women 50 plus in travel. And I would say there was, Quite a bit of interest, but then there was also a little bit like, okay, that's not really that interesting. Or maybe women, that's not that sexy.

Kathy: Maybe women in travel, like, are they really the ones that are buying the trips? Are they really the ones that are buying things? Are they really the influencers? And I was like, yes, they are have all the data. They're the ones that are doing this. But I would say at that time, most of the organizations in the outdoor industry and in the travel industry were owned by men.

Kathy: And they Pretty confidently thought that the people buying their trips were men. Good looking young men and women. So that was sort of a reality check of who was really buying the trips and how important women were and that the leaders in the industry didn't really see the value of women 50 plus.

Kathy: And then when I got into tech, Technology space doing travel dragon. I really was focused on technology and the back end and trying to create this platform that I could connect people directly with all sorts of small companies and trips and I needed to find a technology partner. I know enough about technology to have conversations, but I didn't know how to code.

Kathy: And I applied for tech stars and they said, you have to have a really strong technology partner. And it was hard to find one. It was hard to hire a partner at that time in 2008. And so I just, I feel like I didn't know where to go at the time I started my businesses in the 2000s, from 2004 to 2008.

Kathy: There really weren't, there wasn't women travel leaders, there wasn't women work, there wasn't, I didn't feel like I had anyone to reach out to. So I feel like now in the industry, it's like, Women are so supportive and there's so many resources and it's just a different game. It's a completely different game than it was 10 years ago.

Kathy: And I kind of wish I was Ready to start everything all over again. Cause I feel like I'd have more support and more collaboration

Christine: Yeah, I love that one thing. I just have to laugh because I was just interviewing another guest and they're like, why do you, why does everyone assume that adventure travelers are all just Harrison Ford? And I was like, I don't know, because I have led lots of trips and there are lots of people that don't look like Harrison Ford on those trips.

Christine: In fact, none of them have ever looked like him on those trips. But that's who is in every catalog

Christine: and brochure. So yeah, that, that's interesting in general, just if you're thinking about creating inclusivity in the industry. Like, that's really just leaving out so many people, not, not just women, but I mean, the, the most people are not actually being represented in, in the invitation to actually travel, which I think is really very interesting, but it does really sell you the illusion of who you'll be when you travel, which is also really important because I guess maybe that's who we want to be.

Kathy: Or it's intimidating, right? It's intimidating.

Christine: yeah, I think that is also the case. And we'll talk maybe a little bit about that intimidation factor as like a barrier to outdoor spaces for women. But yeah, I think it can be intimidating. And then this idea of the support that exists now and maybe the shift that we're seeing for me has been incredible to see like you over the past, you know, three or four years, I think, especially since the pandemic.

Christine: There has been this wave of support for women in the industry. And we were talking yesterday, like, because we're in it all the time, we see it. So we're like, doesn't everyone see this? And of course this is out there for everybody. And maybe that's not true because we are, you know, surrounded by it constantly.

Christine: But when I did the pilot program of women's work I just couldn't believe it. And, and Iris was, you know, It's the founder. You know, she said, are you sure you want to do this? I'm like, I have been waiting my whole career for this experience. And I just couldn't believe the level of support because much like you, you know, you had a lot more hands on experience, but there still was not that support as a solopreneur for you to just figure things out.

Christine: And as one person in a business, there's no way you know everything, no matter how long your career has been in the industry. There's no way, you know, everything. And things like women's work just help you connect those dots or find support people that you need because you're not the person that knows.

Christine: The tech and the marketing and how to develop an itinerary and, and, and and I think it's just so important. And then not only that to have women standing beside you when they hear like your company and they're like, that's amazing. That's the best idea I've ever heard. Whereas we were like sitting behind our computer, sending emails and being like, I hope someone sees this and likes it.

Christine: Like to have that community constantly telling you it's great. It's just such a different experience. And I'm sure you can relate to that.

Kathy: Yeah, it's yeah. I was thinking about when I first started the dragon's path and I was running everything like, you know, the internet had just really started and we were faxing requests, I mean, pretty old, obviously, but we were faxing requests for rooms or whatever it would be. And I remember. I was running my own tours too with local guides, of course, but I was on tour and I was running the company like I do now.

Kathy: And I was in these, like in a farmhouse in the Basque country. And I have my little Palm Pilot with like a little modem that plugged into the bottom of the Palm Pilot and I would plug it into the fax machine in the little bed and breakfast. And that's how I got my, I would dial in and then it would show me the subject lines.

Kathy: And I'd figure out if any of them were from guests that were coming on my next trip and they would download and I'd download them. 14K, you know, whatever, the little, and then I get on my Palm Pilot with my little Bluetooth keyboard and I type back and I'm still doing the same thing. It's just not with a Palm Pilot, but like things have changed so much that we, we have instant, which isn't always good, but.

Kathy: It was a different way to run businesses.

Christine: yeah, I actually go back to that a lot when I'm thinking about how much I don't want to be on social media in my business. And I go back to like my one of my first jobs, which was for at the time we were laughing about this, but special expeditions, which was like a couple iterations ago of Lindblad expeditions.

Christine: And the job before that my my job was fax girl. All I did was send and receive faxes, which was the worst job ever, because all the international faxing never worked. And it always was to the front desk and not the fax line. And someone was answering it in a foreign language, like yelling at you, and you don't even know what they're saying.

Christine: And you're just, and everyone's mad that the faxes are not going through. Worst job ever. I'm glad that no one else entering the industry will ever be fax girl. But that was me. And then thinking about like, how did we reach people? I remember the decision process of like, do we create a website here at, special expeditions, which now feels like the craziest question ever to ask.

Christine: But at that time, very similar, like it wasn't that important. You had all these people selling travel in different ways. And so I always go back and think, okay, how were we doing that? How were we connecting with travelers then? And what could I do differently? So I think having the, the that viewpoint is sometimes helpful because we actually knows, knew that it existed, right?

Christine: We worked in a time when you weren't selling trips on social media. So it's helpful to have that perspective. I think it's a unique perspective today. Like my kids will never have that perspective.

Kathy: yeah. You know, the other thing, because I started doing bike tours, I think 1987, right? And so I would be on the road with 23 bikes on the roof of a van with 18 people arriving Friday and 18 more arriving Sunday. And you'd just be out there. You had to fix everything. You had no cell phone. You had to do picnics.

Kathy: You had to do like write out root notes and people had to follow them, you know, follow, like turn right at the red barn. There was no GPS and we had the best time. We never had any problems. Like literally I could fix a bike with a Cannondale tool and a rock. You know, you just like, You just got shit done.

Kathy: And I think now, and we had the best time, like, if it rained, we had to shuttle people, but we would have to have a party that night, or we'd do, like, charades, or we'd do, like, like a scavenger hunt in the town. Like, we just were so creative at that time, leading tours. Because we couldn't if someone got lost, they couldn't call you, you know, and you couldn't call into the office and complain about something if someone missed, you know, whatever, you just had to figure out everything.

Kathy: And I think that built resiliency that we still have, like, I think you and I, you know, everyone that's been in the industry for a long time. And also just, you're creative, you got to make stuff work before you have a computer, or, I mean, when cell phones don't work, they don't work. So

Christine: Yeah. I think so many of us are nostalgic for those days of travel too, when you actually had to figure things out and you, Like you, you couldn't cheat and use your cell phone. Like you had to go find an internet cafe if you really needed to connect with someone or like pay someone on the corner to use their phone in their store or like all these things that we, we did when we were traveling.

Christine: And part of that, yeah, it really cultivated something in you that it's hard to find in travel now because it's so easy to just. be on your phone and it's like the first thing I do now when I travel is like get my R low and make sure my maps are updated and all the connectivity and then you're kind of annoyed that everything's connected but like we already set it in place so that it is.

Kathy: it's funny. I was it's still the same way when you're doing a remote track or something. Right. So I remember not too many years ago I was with Shannon Stoll and some people I invited for a fam in Bhutan and we had no coverage and we got stuck in the snow and we were like, George went and was on it, who founded oars.

Kathy: And someone would be like, what is that? And then we would all just decide to come up with some creative, Description of what it was, right? There was always, as you, as a guide, you always had true and true enough. You'd make up things like you didn't know what Chateau, that Chateau was that you were cycling by, but someone asked you, and so you, you made it up.

Kathy: You couldn't Google things. So it was really fun to like be with a bunch of industry leaders for two, or 10 days and be really, when the guide wasn't with you, you became guides and you were hysterical. Like you were so creative of what maybe you were looking at, but. Yeah, I miss that.

Christine: Yeah, it was so good. Well, one of the things that we talked about yesterday as after we got done talking, I was thinking about this and I landed on the idea of this, the distinction between wanting something bigger or wanting to create something bigger and feeling like you need to do something bigger, which is, I think, two slightly different ideas of where The catalyst is coming from, like, for example, we were talking about how do we affect change?

Christine: And that, that's something that both lands on our hearts of like, we want that to be bigger, right? Like we don't feel like it has to be, no one's telling us it needs to be, but that's like, that's our soul of travel, right? That's our mission is to create change. And how do we do that? And especially being smaller business owners, I know this is something, you know, I've talked about a lot is.

Christine: There's only so much we can do. And yet we wish we were doing it all. Like we, we, we see this bigger picture constantly and we're trying to reach toward it. But then we look at like the shovel shovel we're holding, but we need a backhoe. And so I wanted to talk about that. Like, how do you, how do you kind of work through some of those conversations with yourself?

Christine: How do you look at the change we're creating? What choices do you make? in supporting small companies to create an impact or trying to get bigger to create an impact? Like how do you dance that dance?

Kathy: Yeah. You know, I think when I started my company, I was fine. I didn't know anything else. I was fine just thinking I would grow. I would grow the company, it would get bigger like the companies I'd worked for. And that's how it would affect change. I would have, you know, stay personal and, you know, always work with local guides and stay on local properties and.

Kathy: But then when I had my first kind of big shift into possibly working with, you know, a bigger company like Whole Foods Market, I saw this way of opening up. Like all I wanted to do to a bigger audience without having to find that audience myself, someone else had had the audience and it was a really unaligned audience.

Kathy: So once I had that taste, it was really hard to sort of go back to my own little thing. And that's also why I think I started, wanted to start travel dragging because I thought, well, it's a platform and technology is the future. And. How can I connect all my resources and all these great companies to people without me having to be the one that's selling the trips.

Kathy: I don't really care about that. And, and now, you know, you and I've talked about it. It's like, after I would say, failing or not having success in a number of these big startups, my question is, is it personally driven by me that I feel like I have to do something bigger? And where is that coming from?

Kathy: You know? And what is big? And I think, like you and I talked about a little bit, but I don't have kids. I sort of gave up a lot of things in my life for my career. And I don't regret that. But now, you know, kind of towards the end of my career Do I have time for another, do I have the energy, not time but I guess time and energy for another big startup and what will that take away from me, away from my relationships if, if the right one comes, comes on and if not, are the things that I've done in the past and the things I still can do, are they enough?

Kathy: And is that a personal, is that a personal conversation that I need to have with myself of like, I can, I can talk with my guests, I have a lot of, I'll repeat referral, and I have all these amazing women, and they say, you know, you've seen the impact you've had on our lives, we've changed our lives, we, you know, we read differently, we vote differently, we shop differently, we have this community of women that you've introduced us to Maybe that is enough.

Kathy: Maybe those small steps are enough. Maybe, you know, I was just in the Basque country and then the Picos de Europa meeting with guides I hadn't seen in five and 10 years that I still work with, but we hadn't. And they, we had these stories of when we met 20 years ago, 15 years ago, and how I changed their companies and their beliefs and how they've grown.

Kathy: So maybe, maybe there is enough out there. I just don't see it or yeah, I'm not sure.

Christine: Yeah, I think sometimes it's hard to see the impact we have created actually because once it's behind us, it's kind of just behind us, right? And so we're, I think you and I are both really visionary. We're always looking forward and trying to think of the next thing and So then maybe we lose that. But at the same time, when you hear, I was just saying like one podcast guest email or listener emailed me and, you know, was saying why this certain conversation inspired them and what they were thinking about.

Christine: And that feels huge because that feels like they let me into their life and I created a change, I made a difference. And so that feels really important. So I don't want it to be insignificant. That these one on one changes aren't important because I really think they are. And for me, even the whole reason I started my travel company is because I've had these moments in travel where everything about my viewpoint and my expectations and the way I think and feel changed, right?

Christine: Like you have that conversation with someone or you see something and you're like, that's it. Like the world just, spun the other way for a moment and everything is different. And I want nothing more than like one other woman to have that experience. And like, that's change, right? That's really big change.

Christine: I know that's powerful because it was powerful for me. And then I'm also like, but I also want that for like 10, 000 women. And so then it's really hard because then you're looking at that 10, 000 number and realizing how far you are from it. And then you forget about the one, which was also so important.

Christine: And so I think, you know, those questions you're asking are really important. And then also like thinking about our value, like, I think it's a really personal question, but I think when it's tangled up in our profession, we can't, we can't separate the two. And so. It's a really sticky spot as we look forward.

Christine: Like how much should I keep pushing or what's the next invention or what's the next thing that makes me feel value or feel like I'm adding value and. I just really appreciate being able to kind of like dig into that with no answers because we haven't come up with an answer yet. When we do we'll share it but I think those conversations are really important.

Kathy: Yeah, I do, too. I think, you know, one of the things that. Being such driven women. We were always busy. I'm always busy. I have a hard time just being still. I'm more comfortable often traveling than I am at home. And I'm always doing 15, 000 things. But I think at this time it's like what, how do I slow down and how maybe I need to say no to some more things so I can actually have the space to decide what's next and what.

Kathy: You know, what my skill sets are and what my experience is that I can share in a way that it can have a bigger impact or help more people because it's just easier to stay to say yes to things and to be creating. You know, still utilizing your experience and still creating trips. But is, is that it?

Kathy: Or is there something more there's people used to people used to say, like, how do you make money? I, and I used to use this term, like, how do you make money while you're asleep? And, you know, instead of I make money. Because I'm on tour doing it. So if I'm not on tour, I'm not doing it personally, it doesn't happen.

Kathy: But I think it's way beyond making money. It's like, how do you have an impact when you're not personally one on one talking with someone? And you do, because like this podcast is a great example. I mean, it's a lot of work, but it's, it's evergreen. It's going to be here and people can be driving in their car and listen, and they'll have a life changing experience. Thought, idea, experience, and you don't have to be, you never have met them. So I think what you're doing is amazing. And I know you do too.

Christine: Well, thank you but I had never really thought about it that way before I actually think about that exact thing like, how can I be creating an impact without having to be there because I can only be so many places. And I never really thought about the fact that this is doing that for me all the time, other than like when I look at the statistics and I'll see like this week you bought, you know, four downloads in Pakistan and three downloads in Afghanistan or something.

Christine: And I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, there is women. And I'm going to just assume they're women listening to this podcast and hearing now from Kathy and that's showing them all these possibilities or that's inspiring them or just shifting the way they're thinking about what's available in the world. And like, when it's somewhere like that, I really feel like just that one person, again, that one person who might just say, you know, I I've heard this podcast and there's all these women all around the world

Kathy: Yeah,

Christine: Like, but I, I lose track of that moment. So thank you for reminding me. I think it's so hard for us to not just remind those on, like, put those on the sticky note on the wall that tells us like, we have done the thing we actually are trying to do before getting ahead of ourselves to do the next thing. But the next thing is where I'm headed now. So here we go. You and I were talking about ideas, which has been so fun. I think we could sit in a room and just like think of ideas for hours and then just be so fulfilled. And we were talking about the book, Big Magic, which I know you haven't read yet, but when you do, you're going to love it so much.

Christine: But this idea that ideas just live, right? Like they're all around us all the time. And they're just like, Landing on your shoulder and being like, Is this where I come to the world? Or do I need to find the next shoulder? And I think you and I are the, we must just have like a bright light for these ideas because they just like ping off us all the time.

Christine: And we were just joking about all the like websites that we own and just in case because that was a great idea but I'm not ready for it yet. But I want to talk about a little bit about this, like ideas and thinking bigger and, and how do you, like, grab a hold of the one and make it yours, or how do you, like, look at the one that's so good, but you know it's not yours and send it back out to the universe.

Kathy: I don't know, I'm like, we talked about all the fun URLs we have and it's like, I just can't let them go. I still have like 70 or something. Because they, when I go back, I'm like, Oh, that was, that was a good one that someone needs to do that. Like you said I used to, and I know when I'm talking with people like you, or when I'm really engaged, those ideas come to me every day.

Kathy: I have a new business idea. I mean, people joke around with me all the time. I'm like, someone needs to do this one. And what I realized is that I do think that letting them go. Because it's not right for me or right at that time and talking with people about them and kind of brainstorming with people and, and then just, you know, being realistic of what's your, you know, what are the resources that are needed for that?

Kathy: Am I, would I have to bring in someone? Would I have to get a partner? You know, whatever. So it's hard. Sometimes it's hard to let them go. Sometimes I feel we talked a little bit about like, confidence and confidence when I don't feel confident. I feel like hoarding, I feel like hoarding. Saving my ideas and no one, I don't want anyone to take those ideas.

Kathy: I, and when I feel confident, I know there's going to be more, there will always be more ideas. There'll be more, and then maybe someone will take it and then I can be a part of it. I think that's something I'm more interested in being part of something now than I am doing it myself. I love collaboration.

Kathy: I think being a woman owned business on your own, it's like I can talk to my dog or You know, I can call a friend, but it's not the same as creating something with someone that can be hard, but it's so fun. So yeah, I, I'm not sure. I think I'm, I think I have another one in me. And I'm, I'm just not sure what it is.

Kathy: So, yeah.

Christine: I think it's so great thinking about how to attack those ideas or how to which one is the right one. I mean, I think it's really important and there's feels like a lot of pressure around it. And yet, not like what you were saying of, you know, your mental state of when you're here, you're like, I need all these ideas.

Christine: But then when you're in a different state, you're like, they're fine. They're out there. And some are for me and some are not. And maybe my job was actually just to acknowledge the idea and like, speak it to the person who's, who it's for. Like, you know, I think that's a really important hour to maybe like, be able to pull them out of the ethers and like send them to the right person.

Christine: And then the other thing you said that I think is really resonant with me and my journey right now is like. I know want to start something else like there's a lot of energy in that creation, right? It makes us feel really vital and like we are having an impact and creating a legacy and I also look at how many people are doing amazing things and we've also talked about this and i'm like Just want their their amazing thing to be like the best amazing thing and how can I be a part of that not because I want any credit but because I want, want that thing to be the best and what gift do I have that I can bring to them and maybe that's like the next iteration of who I am is actually not.

Christine: Like building my own ship, but just being like, Hey, I know how to like fix that. Or, and I'm happy to do that for you. And I think that's really important too. And, and I think that's a, as people that have really been innovating and creating sometimes feels hard because you're giving up some of that control and you're giving up the direction of things.

Christine: And like you said, it feels great because it's sometimes nice to give up some of that control in the direction of things. Like it's hard, it's hard to do that all the time, especially by yourself and community and collaboration and co creation are big, important things. And maybe that's the next most important direction in business.

Christine: Like we've also talked about this too, it's like, How do we create the like container actually for co creation and bringing all these people that are working so hard by themselves together so that it doesn't have to be so hard because we've done it and we've seen it and we know it could has to be easier.

Christine: There has to be an easier way. So, yeah, maybe we can just like dig apart that a little bit.

Kathy: Wow. Yeah. There are so many ideas that came up when you were just saying that. I think you know, when I travel, when I've been doing a lot of these familiarizations, where I am traveling with these great small operators and I'm always talking with the owner, like, usually the owners on the trip to, we're talking about all sorts of things and I was like, what about this?

Kathy: What do you think about this? How have you been doing this? And it might be like, The, the second, the second generation, like I knew their father, I knew their mother, and now they're taking over the business. So we start talking and I've heard consistently within businesses and travel that people have lost this.

Kathy: I mean, we know it internationally, right? Since COVID people have lost a lot of the historic positions. So people don't have the same relationships. They don't know the same people. There's a lot of new people getting into the industry. That are wonderful and energetic, but they don't have the same knowledge base and experience base.

Kathy: And so I'm always like, okay, well, I'm happy to be like, On your board for free, you know, like, like call me, I, you know, call me if you want to brainstorm about how to put together, you know, this kind of package or and I think I, I think people are, have a hard time when you offer something for free.

Kathy: You know, to say like, use me, I have all this knowledge. How can I help you? Yeah. So I think there's something there about how do we, how do we know what we're good in and are we okay with giving it away for free? Are, is there a different level of exchange that we have in terms of the value of our passion of our information of our history?

Kathy: So there's, there's that part. And then, you know, you and I talked about so many things have changed with the ability for technology platforms, right? So it's not as expensive to build things. How do you create possibly some sort of platform that and business that allows for people to have their own trips, their own companies, but.

Kathy: have joint marketing, have joint resources be able to have like some shared resources on social media or on purchasing insurance or, you know, all these things that cost a lot for a small business. I mean, health insurance is like a whole nother conversation. You know, and I, I think acknowledging that a lot of women can't start their own companies because they don't help health insurance from someone else.

Kathy: And it's a big expense. So Yeah, I don't know if that, you know, goes in the direction that you're talking about.

Christine: Yeah, no, I love that and I think it's also just really important thinking about those things. This was another conversation I was having recently about is. Why are we seeing so many women starting businesses today and what, you know, what is kind of precipitating that change? And I think one of the things is the flexibility to, to run your own company where, where you're not getting to that point somewhere else, like, you know, you're doing all these things, but you're not actually in charge of this, you know, the final decisions.

Christine: And then another comment that comes up is, you know, there wasn't flexibility for me to do this full time and be with my family or do this full time and take care of my mother or grandmother or, you know, whatever these other roles would be. They're not there for women to both lead and have any other kind of life or responsibilities.

Christine: And so you see women starting companies because of that, because it gives them this creative freedom. It gives them this freedom in their own lives. And then this, then you look at these barriers, which are exactly what you just said, then all of a sudden we realize we can't afford health care. We maybe can't afford now child care.

Christine: We can't afford all these other things. And so then there isn't like there is opportunity. And at the same time, there's not opportunity because There's not a way to become bigger than a certain level without this extra support. And I think this is the thing I keep seeing is some people have managed to jump that gap.

Christine: And I'm always like, how did you jump that gap? But it seems like there's only this level of growth without bigger resources. And I feel like women owned businesses hit that thing. Like you were saying, like you, you need a partner, you need the funding, you need the whatever. And for some reason women aren't allowed or aren't given access to that next level.

Christine: And I don't know what that is.

Kathy: Yeah, I, you know, I didn't come from, I was never dreamed of being in the travel industry. So, I didn't really know that I had, that my skill sets were kind of really entrepreneurial. I, I never was tested for that. I didn't know how that worked. But once you jump into it and you know that you just are always creating businesses and have ideas I do think I wish I had learned earlier.

Kathy: I wish there had been something that I took in college that was more an entrepreneurial track that talked with me and more about resources. I remember when I started my C corporation. I had no idea how to set up and I still don't really how to set up the stock and partnerships and, you know, different levels of different a, you know, like a and B levels of investment.

Kathy: And that was just, it was like I was talking to, I didn't. I needed the one on one course of like, when you think about starting a business, like, how do you, how can you look at it in the future? And, you know, if it's an LLC or an S corporation or whatever is this time, do you have the interest in maybe selling it at some time?

Kathy: And, you know, how do you, how do you set yourself up for that or employees or, you know, all the things that you have to look at that I think. I didn't know. I just jumped in. And I think, like you said, there are more resources out there, but as a woman, I'm not sure. As a woman, I'm not sure. I felt kind of embarrassed that I didn't know.

Kathy: I didn't know those things. I didn't know a lot about investment strategies and partnerships, and I didn't want to do it wrong. So I just yeah, I, it's, it's,

Kathy: it's interesting to look at it now.

Christine: I think that's really valuable too, because I think when you are entering a space and especially a space that maybe feels male dominated, like entrepreneurship, business so if you're like a woman who likes to travel adventure travel, like you're already like, I already kind of feel like I don't belong here.

Christine: So I'm not going to ask the embarrassing question, and I'm just going to kind of figure it out somewhere over here where no one notices that I'm trying to figure it out and really you need that support. So I think that's also really valid is, and I've seen people, this is the one thing I love about women's work and women travel leaders, like you see the people ask the question that you were embarrassed to ask or afraid to us.

Christine: And you're like, Oh, that was a valid question. And I let myself get away without asking it.

Kathy: You know, it's really interesting during COVID. I have several friends that, you know, there's a lot of acquisition that went on, a lot of companies closed, and there's a lot of acquisitions that went on during COVID. And I think there was a lot of women owned companies that, We don't know how to value our company.

Kathy: We don't know how to value ourselves, but we don't know how to value our company. And so I look back and I had several friends that came and said, you know, I was sort of approached, but I actually didn't know how really I understand the finances behind my business and I couldn't give them the information they needed.

Kathy: So I, you know, I'm taking class now or I'm doing this, but you see the companies that were acquired and they were almost all male companies acquired by. A group of male companies, male owned companies. I think it's, I think there's a lot of potential, but I think it's, there's a lack in the industry of helping women really know the value on, you know, of their companies and how to read the, you know, their, their annual reviews and how to know what their profit margins are and all of that.

Kathy: So they can know if they have a successful company and if. They decide they want to sell what it's worth. So that's another gap, I think.

Christine: Yeah. Oh, so many good things that we're going to have to go back and listen to this later and like take notes and we'll have like 37 more ideas about what we could do. Well, I wanted to, to hit at least one more thing and then possibly one more, but I wanted to talk about how we really can support women in travel and how we can do this as business owners.

Christine: and how we can do this as travelers. And you and I talked about a few things that are, are pretty simple, but I think really important. You know, one of the things you mentioned, and maybe you can share, I can't remember the statistic, but you know, when women travel, and this was also kind of in that barrier to entry category, especially in adventure travel, like one of the reasons they don't do it is because they don't feel like they have the right gear.

Christine: They can't find the gear that fits, which is a whole nother sidebar and one of my, my ideas on my shoulder et cetera. And so they are going out and buying things perhaps if they haven't been in this area of travel before. And one of the easiest ways. Is for them to just support women owned companies when they're purchasing those things they need so that they can actually be a part of the outdoor and adventure travel community.

Christine: I'd love to talk a little bit about that. Mm-Hmm.

Kathy: When I started activewomen. com, I, that was kind of one of the, one of the pieces of it was to have women not be, it was way before influencers, but sort of have women have, it was like a template and we would write about them and the type of travel they had based on whose suitcase they were packing.

Kathy: So if you're going with your kids or your husband or by yourself or with your girlfriends, you travel differently. And then there's a whole nother part, which was this is kind of what my body type is right now. And as I'm, as I'm traveling, like, I want to find other people that have the same problem with their foot or they have long arms or they have whatever.

Kathy: And when you go into so I was doing a lot of statistics when I started the company, I mean, going in and getting a lot of data. So we have the data that women made 88 to 93 percent of the decisions around travel. They might not be their credit card, but they're the ones that are making a decision of where the family goes, where they go, where the couple goes.

Kathy: And that's a huge, that's a huge amount. So generally, they're making 83 percent of the decisions around like that. any decision family decision. But with travel, it's more. And then I was doing more research on, like, what do people pay? What are my women, guests investing? And like you said, I had to call it like the empty closet that women are successful in their Other life, and they're starting to travel and they don't have any of the stuff and they're only taking one suitcase.

Kathy: So they're not going to buy a bunch of stuff. So they need the right things. They need help. And when they go into a store they need someone that can understand that can really help them look at like practically where are you going and, you know, have you done this before and fit them properly, but they feel so intimidated.

Kathy: And a lot of companies try to start these. Like virtual like these clothing stores that they could go in and then they could try on things and people could get feedback. There's, there's been a lot of like ideations of what could happen, but if women are spending an average of 2, 500 in gear and clothing before they go on any trip and we're sending out a packing list, how do we do the links to the companies and which companies do we do?

Kathy: And, and then do we have specific products that people that we know are going to be great. And then how do we as travel leaders when we're traveling, where things and constantly talk about, you know, I used to support this company, two women that created a company called contour aware, and they were like the best things.

Kathy: So they were like fashionable and functional and you know, Shoulder fabrics and really great cuts. And they were either bought or went out of business. And I think they were one of the first women owned small travel companies. You talked about title nine last, last night or yesterday. So how can we directly give them links?

Kathy: You know, could we, a lot of times I do pre and post bookings for people on booking. com. I just send them a link. How can we send the links? How do we create, you know, what would be great women owned travel Bed and breakfast and hotels in booking. com. There would be like a little, you know, little logo that showed it was a women owned business.

Kathy: Like, wouldn't that be amazing that you could sort by that? It's like, they're starting to do it with lift if you want to have a woman driver. So all this stuff is coming and I think it's important that we're conscious about, I've always been conscious about supporting local guides and supporting local properties.

Kathy: And when possible, those are, you know, women owned or family owned. But how do we kind of bubble that up? And then the other thing we talked about was shopping on tours. How do we get people, like, here's, we know that women love to shop for local locally made products when they're there, whether that's food products or whether that's textiles.

Kathy: So how do we. Give them some back story about the companies they might be visiting. And how do we help them share the products that they've purchased? So there may be other women that followed them on social media. It's like, Oh, that's the greatest, you know, rug that you got from this person, I'd like to buy that to her earrings.

Kathy: So, you know, it's just, how do we be more conscious about that? Yeah.

Christine: I love that. And I think it's so, it's easy to think about it, but like you said, it's sometimes hard to find. And I remember before I went to the Adventure Travel World Summit in Switzerland, I was gonna stay a couple nights in Zurich and I. I was like, well, let's just like put my values to the test.

Christine: And I was Googling like women owned hotels in Zurich. And actually I found one and it was incredible. And it was this whole chain of hotels. And I went in toward the properties and heard the story and it added so much value to my experience because I took the initiative, but what if it was easier?

Christine: Because. Those things are out there and maybe they're not out there and the numbers that we wish they were but they are out there. And, you know, I think that's something else that we're both passionate about is, is, is connecting those dots because we want people to find Those businesses and support them and hear their stories and understand why they're important within the community.

Christine: And then that creates just like this richer travel experience. That's more, more rewarding to the traveler and to the destination. And so I think sometimes people think, you know, it's just talk or it's a burden or it's not important, but it's important on so many levels. And I think the other thing that, you know, we get really excited about is That when you look at supporting women in travel, people talk about, you know, how do we support climate?

Christine: How do we support education? How do we support healthcare? And I'm like, if you support women, when you travel, you have done all those things. Like I have the sustainable development goals pinned up on my board over here, which is why I'm gesturing. If you're watching the video. And like, I was doing a presentation on it for the rise travel Institute.

Christine: And looking at really almost every one of them. If you are supporting gender equity, you're supporting every other initiative. Like there is the focus on supporting women, but every one of those touches upon it. And so that's why I feel like when you're looking at like, what's the little thing you can do that creates a lot of impact kind of going back there, like, this is.

Christine: This can be easy. And. And have impact. Yeah. All right. Well, we are just like rounding out an hour of conversation, which I know in the beginning you thought we might not make it there but we did. And I'm, I'm so so so grateful for this conversation. Oh, two things. So before we end, I had teased you that I wanted to mention these two women owned companies that I love.

Christine: So I'm going to share those and then also I have our rapid fire, rapid fire ish questions. So Two companies that I love. They've both been on the podcast greet her, which is. Where, when, when you're traveling in many countries around the world, you can go to greet her. Dot com and you can find female guides who will meet you.

Christine: I did this in Oaxaca with my daughter. I went on their website. They matched me with a guide that shared similar interests and she met us and took us around Oaxaca and showed us like her favorite place to get coffee. This like her favorite nook in this library her, the little market she walked to on her way to work, all these things that were really allowing to understand the destination through her eyes to support women.

Christine: A lot of these women are not certified guides because it costs a lot of money to do that, but they are very knowledgeable. And so this is a great company talk about a tech startup that I'm so proud of to just like watching the sidelines. And then the other one is called Her House and it was started by a woman who Was like couch surfing kind of all over the world and wished that she had a network to tap into.

Christine: So she created one and you can go on it and you can find women that will host you in their home, which actually is, could be so great for you when you're actually home. But that people could stay with you and then you could show them where you live, but you can go and stay with other women and they will like take you around where they're living.

Christine: And then you have a safe place. Also, that one is a free place. Like you pay for the app, but the guests host you for free. So it also makes travel safe and accessible. So like two shout outs to those, which I know they're companies you would love to hear about too. Okay. Well, after that, let's go to our questions.

Christine: The first one is what are you reading right now?

Kathy: I've got a three books I'm reading the one, you probably listen. I heard it build the life you want. It's with Oprah and what's his name? Arthur Brooks. So I'm, I'm reading that like I read a lot of personal growth books of just kind of like opening them to whatever chapter I feel like opening to them.

Kathy: I'm not very good at reading them directly. And then two of my guests have started have written books in the last couple of weeks. Months. One of them I sent to you that would be great to have you her on. It's Annika Paradise and she wrote a book called The Wonder Year about traveling with your, with your kids for a year and how to plan that.

Kathy: It's a really kind of more of a guide and, and homeschooling. So it's really, really good. And she's doing a lot right now in podcasts and bringing a lot of other women that have had these cool companies. So she would love to know about these two companies she's told me about. And then another one is called.

Kathy: What's it called? Take less, do more. And it's by Glenn VanPesky, who is one of my, my amazing guests client. And he's the one of the ultralight hikers. And he just wrote about taking less, doing more, but not just taking less. On the trail, but also in life. And it's really good. And it just came out.

Kathy: So those are, those are my books.

Christine: Exciting. I'm always glad to hear about ones that I don't know about too, but I do have wonder year somewhere in my. office slash pile of books in here. And I took it with me when I was traveling with my

Kathy: Oh, you did.

Christine: yeah. Yeah. What is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?

Christine: Which actually, I know this is the best question for you because you have the best things, like your little tech bag that you had that you showed us in Peru with like all the perfect adapters

Kathy: Oh my God. I forgot about that one. Yes. Yeah, I have like, I have, yeah, all these adapters until they don't work, but I have like this little Disc that has every USB to USC to us adapter that you put on the end of whatever cable. So if you're on the airplane and you have this, this will plug into that and then plug into what you need.

Kathy: So I have like a little bag that has everything and it's great. I should just empty it out and we can, like, I can do and do little signs to what it is. But I always have an EpiPen. That's my big thing because I was allergic to bees when I didn't know it. And so many guests are and they forget they're EpiPen.

Kathy: So that's always and then clothing. I have a little Patagonia Houdini that goes anywhere with me because it's always like super hot and then it's not. And so that. And definitely since Japan, my little umbrella, got one of those little ultralight sun rain umbrellas that you can, I love hiking with umbrellas, I think, I hate just raincoats because you just get wet all over so, yeah, those

Kathy: are 

Christine: I this I feel like could be a part two and a whole other session because actually when I pack, especially after traveling with you, I'm like, what would Kathy have? Like, I have a few people that I, they're like always the people I draw from because I'm like, I remember they had this piece and it was so perfect and versatile.

Christine: And I remember that this gadget that felt like it was really important. And I was like, okay but I feel like we could,

Christine: It's, it's hard. It's hard to pack sometimes and like when we were just in Prue and I watch you all over the world, you always have a carry on and

Kathy: Except this last time. Except for the, except this last time.

Christine: you're gone a long time, I think, but like, it's magical to me. I'm like, we were in 27 different, like, biospheres and you still have the right thing every time and I don't understand how it's possible.

Kathy: I love that. I love that stuff. I would rather that would be such a fun podcast to do like showing people like what do you think about this?

Christine: yeah, maybe maybe a webinar. Listeners stay tuned. Maybe that's something we could do for you. Okay. Next question. To sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you lived there for a short while. Where is somewhere that you would still love to sojourn

Kathy: still that I haven't been or I

Christine: or just return to and really like immerse yourself.

Kathy: Well, I was just in the Azores in the spring and I loved it and I think I want to spend. two to six months there. I just really connected. It's like Hawaii and Ireland together and the people were amazing. So they are in a place I haven't been in Georgia. It's been on my list for a while. And so I'm really, it's going to happen 

Christine: Yeah, Georgia is for me is Rob Holmes fault, who I am sure you know him, but he did a beautiful video for for production of the of the country. And I was like, I didn't know I needed to go there. And then I watched that. And since then, the country has come up so 

Christine: many times, 

Kathy: We'll go together. We should do that.

Christine: would be oh my gosh.

Christine: Yes, please. Okay. What do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?

Kathy: Oh, I love pinchos. I love like small bites. I love like little tastes. And for me, the Basque country is one of my favorite places in the world and they have these. It's not tapas. They're pinchos. There's a whole description around it, but they're beautiful and they're inexpensive and they are always delicious and diverse.

Kathy: So yeah, pinchos.

Christine: Yeah, who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and travel the world?

Kathy: Probably my dad, he was a navigator in the Air Force and he was flying still in the guard on the weekends when we were growing up. And we had a globe that had pins and all the places he had landed and he used to bring back like kimonos and like hibachi pots and, you know, things and tell us about it.

Kathy: And my grandmother, she also traveled a lot, but I never traveled until I was much later in life.

Christine: if you could take an adventure with one person fictional or real alive or past who would it be?

Kathy: My goddaughter, Lorna, who's the daughter of Annika Paradise, who wrote the book. So Lorna's featured in the book. She's 18 and she's going to University of Hawaii. So she's traveled a ton, but. You know, I'm not always a great person for being present all the time for other people and for me, since she was born, I've been trying to get together with her and have fun with her.

Kathy: And she puts up with me coming back after five months and taking her out. And we just have so much fun together. We went on my, with my van and a van trip last year, just for an overnight. And I just love her. So I would love to travel with her.

Christine: Yeah, thank you. Um, And the last one um, Soul of Travel is a space for recognizing and celebrating women in the industry that we admire. Who's one woman that you would love to recognize in this space?

Kathy: Helen Nodland. I think you know her. So Helen, I don't think you've had her on a podcast. She's amazing. So Helen, I've known her forever. I got her to, I heard her speak first time in Boston years ago and got her to represent Country Walkers at the time. And she used to have this little seminar thing called Adventures in Exotic Travel seminars where she would train travel agents on what walking tours and hiking tours were all about.

Kathy: And she's still working in Virtuoso doing all the training. She's amazing. An amazing speaker, an amazing trainer, just a wonderful woman and one of my, I consider a very close friend. So I think she's amazing.

Christine: Yeah. Oh, thank you. I haven't heard her name in so long. And just when you said it, I was like, Oh, that's such a good memory from way back when. So thank you. And also just, thank you so much for being here. I'm so glad that we were able to invite listeners into one of our, our soulful conversations and for you to be able to share your wisdom and experience here on the podcast.

Kathy: Thank you so much for making this such a welcoming space. I really appreciate it.

Christine: Thank you.