Ethical Content Series: Lebawit Lily Girma, Tourism Lens

In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine shares a soulful replay of her conversation with Lebawit Lily Girma as part of our Ethical Content Series.

Lily is an Ethiopian-American freelance travel journalist specializing in sustainable tourism and storytelling from both consumer and business perspectives. Lily contributes to various travel publications. A former corporate attorney, Lily ditched her Washington, DC office for the road in 2008 to follow her passion for storytelling and social impact through sustainable tourism. Lily is the founder of Tourism Lens, a hub for travelers and travel industry members to gather around ideas to center nature and host communities as key beneficiaries of travel.

Christine and Lily discuss:

· Curating stories mindfully and sustainably
· The effects of the global pandemic on conversations in travel
· The work of Tourism Lens in sharing diverse perspectives and solutions from tourism advocates and leaders from all parts of the travel industry

  Join Christine for this soulful conversation with Lebawit Lily Girma.

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To read our episode blog post, access a complete transcript, see full show notes, and find resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to the Soul of Travel Website.

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To learn more about Tourism Lens, visit the website! Read Lebawit Lily Girma’s Bloomberg articles here. Find Moon Travel Guides here. Connect with Lebawit Lily Girma on LinkedIn, Twitter, or Instagram, or follow Tourism Lens on Instagram.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Lebawit Lily Girma (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by

Transcript

Christine: In our conversation, Lily and I discuss her transition from attorney to travel writer, writing for guidebooks early in her career, and how that has influenced these stories she shares, and how she shares them the unique times she found herself in during the pandemic that allowed for different conversations to unfold. And the work she's doing now at Tourism Lens. Love these soulful conversations? We rely on listener support to produce our podcast. You can support me in amplifying the voices of women by making a donation on PayPal. The link is in the show notes. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Lebawit Lily Girma. 

Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm so excited today to be joined by Lebawit Lily Girma, who is a full-time travel news reporter and freelance journalist who specializes in sustainable tourism reporting and storytelling. Um, she also recently launched Tourism Lens, which is offering news and insight and tips on meaningful travel. Um, she really tells stories that are ones that I wanna read and, uh, is talking about things that are really important to me. So I was so excited to be able to connect with you and bring you on to this platform to be able to share, you know, your expertise and your journey as well. So welcome to the podcast. 

Lily: Thank you so much, Christine. It's really great to be here and, uh, wonderful to be among such amazing colleagues on your podcast. 

Christine: Thank you, I appreciate that. Um, well, to begin our conversation, I'd love to just turn it over to you and give you the opportunity to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are in tourism right now, and then we'll back it up and understand how you got here. 

Lily: Sure. So, currently I am a full-time travel news reporter with Bloomberg Pursuits, which is the, uh, lifestyle luxury arm of Blue Bloomberg News and Bloomberg Business Week. So I contribute there full-time, uh, during the week and write travel stories, uh, that are a blend of consumer facing, uh, with the business perspective to the stories. 

Christine: And, uh, I would love to then kind of understand, you know, how your background and your experiences as a child growing up. I know they really influenced the way that you approach travel and storytelling and begin to shape how you engaged with the world. And I would love to hear from you a little bit about that part of your journey, and then we'll move into your early career and then your transition into travel. 

Lily: Sure. It's my favorite part to talk about. I was, uh, born in Ethiopia in East Africa, and I left there when I was very young, barely a year old. And my family moved us to the Ivory Coast or Covo on the West African, um, west African country that used to be a French colony. And I pretty much grew up there, you know, spent most of my childhood all the way up to, um, 1417 even. And, um, French became my mother tongue, which is, you know, very unusual. And at the same time at home, um, I learned Amharic, which is a national Ethiopian language. So I had a very Ethiopian household. We grew up with knowing about all of everything about our culture, our food, our our holidays, et cetera. And, um, so at home I spoke m Herrick, or at least I listened to it and learned it. 

Lily: And at school I would be speaking French with my friends, and my friends were from all over the world. Um, I had friends from France, from Lebanon, from Madagascar, like you name it. Uh, and I, I know that that experience as a kid growing up in a multicultural environment around multiple, you know, diverse not just ethnicities, but religions, you know, and beliefs and everything, um, shaped my, my outlook on life and my interest, you know, and the things that I look out for travel was really just, uh, an important mechanism for connecting me to my family overseas. Um, I went to high school at some point at, for when I was 14, my dad, uh, gave me the opportunity to go study in Europe, in England, and he, he said, I could go there or I could stay in the Ivory Coast and finish, uh, French school. 

Lily: And of course right then I was like, oh my God, Europe, yes, I wanna go <laugh>. And, uh, I was 14 at the time and I, I still went there and I was, you know, all the way across the Atlantic attending boarding school at an all girls school in Bournemouth, south of England, full-time away from my parents during the year. And every holiday I'd get to fly home if it was Christmas or summer. And so I was boarding all these flights, you know, on my own. Um, and, and I loved, I loved everything about travel <laugh>, you know, um, from the moment you drive to the airport to, to getting on the, on the long haul flight, et cetera. Um, and then from there we went to the United States, and I was, uh, at the time at college, uh, college age. So I, uh, applied for a couple of universities and, um, we were in the Maryland, Washington DC area. 

Lily: My father, um, got a job in DC so that's why we, we kind of moved there. Um, and I went to college then it was a major culture shock, um, you know, and then from there, at some point, uh, I fell in love with the Caribbean. So it, you know, my whole trajectory has been about just being around multiple cultures and multiple languages. I speak four of them fluently. Um, and I can't, you know, give myself credit for being a genius. I really just learned them when I was a kid. So <laugh>, so, uh, the Spanish part, yes, I did learn in school, but that came easily because I spoke French. So all of these have been huge advantages for me that I didn't realize at the time. You know, I kind of just took them for granted. Yeah. When I, yeah. So when I arrived in United States, um, and experienced a very different atmosphere, which I had begun feeling in the, in the UK as well, you know, um, of just a very kind of divided, uh, approach, you know, to everyday life. 

Lily: I started noticing just things like, you know, I'd go to the movies and, and depending on which movie theater I picked in which neighborhood, uh, that would determine the makeup of, of, of, you know, who was attending that movie theater, you know, whether it was black folks or not, you know? And it just, that used to just be really jarring to me because I had never experienced anything like that anywhere else. Um, so, so, so all of these, uh, thoughts and experiences starting just, you know, influencing my, my outlook on, on travel and the importance of a culture exchange. Um, and the love for just, you know, meeting new people in different places, trying new foods, speaking different languages. I just loved all of it. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I love the kind of, the idea of thinking about that experience you had in your childhood and, and having a classroom with that. Like you said, that richly diverse setting and kind of how easily that allows you to understand how big the world is, even while being in one place. Cause I know that was one thing for me that I really sensed that growing up, but I was in a rural community in Montana, so I hadn't known the city of any kind. I just knew that there was something out there. And I remember being really young and telling my mom, I'm like, why don't we have culture here? And I think really, you know, is, yeah, why is everything the same here? Or why isn't there? Diversity was really the question I was after, but I was too young. I just sensed that there was something else. And, um, so I love that you really were able to experience that. And also that it was something that seemed, um, just so much a part of your life that it wasn't something for me. Like I couldn't really conceive it, but for you, it just painted that picture. Yes. And then, so like, traveling at such a young age and feeling so free and confident and kind of bold, like it was a very, I would imagine a very empowering experience. So travel all of a sudden becomes, you know, about all of these things. 

Lily: Yeah. You know, I wanna add that I think that courage came from watching my own parents traveling abroad, you know, um, the reason we moved here because was because my dad had got this, um, job as an economist, you know, at the African Development Bank. So he was kind of a diplomat, and he, he would travel all the time for work and sometimes take my mom and they would go on vacation. Sometimes it went with them, but a lot of times they took couples trips, you know, to Brazil and to, you know, Paris. And they'd take my, my oldest brother. And all of these photos were photos I used to look at, over and over. And in photo albums, you know, back in the day we had photo albums and I, I used to imagine myself in these places, and we used to have National Geographic, you know, subscription and all of these things. So I think that that definitely made me braver just watching my parents do it. And I think that, um, that definitely was a huge influence. 

Christine: Yeah, I would agree. Cuz I, even my own daughters, you know, for them they're like, I wonder where I'll go to college. And they're like, France, Mexico, New York, <laugh>, you know, they just, they don't have any of that kind of, those boundaries or barriers because we have conversations about these places all the time and it, and it feels very available to them. Mm-hmm. Um, so I do think that that really, really shapes kind of the way you might even think about the world when you start to have it painted for you in that way. Um, so we kind of have an understanding of where you came from, but how then did you set out to become an attorney? And then what really was the shift that told you you needed to return to travel or make travel a bigger part of your life? 

Lily: Yeah, so, um, I decided to go to law school. I took a couple of years off after college. Well, not totally off cause I was working full-time. I was working as a translator at the, uh, at the, at the World Bank, a language assistant and translator thinking that that's what I wanted to do. And I quickly realized it was too boring for me, <laugh> too monotonous. And, um, I started talking to different people and I thought, okay, I'm not going to business school. So it seemed like law school was a thing to do, and I, um, applied to law school and went to uva, which is a great school, a great atmosphere. But, you know, when you come out of these huge schools with loans and, uh, you know, that the single path is always, okay, I'm gonna start at a law firm. I don't know much. 

Lily: Let me get some experience, um, and I'm gonna date myself. But when I joined, uh, my first law firm, which was, uh, is still around a huge firm, um, based in New York. It was just after September 11. And so it was a really catastrophic time to start a new job. But at the same time, uh, we were not laid off and we were told to do whatever work came across our desks. And I thought, okay, I don't know much anyway, so I'll just get as much experience as I can. And over the years, I just felt pretty dissatisfied and thought, surely this isn't why I went to law school. Um, I was doing a lot of pro bono immigration work, which made me happy and exposed me a little bit to the multicultural, um, you know, side of of life again. But I, I realized it's not what I love to do. 

Lily: And in my free time, I, in my vacation time, I would just go to, to Europe or, you know, um, I would just basically fly off for the, for a long weekend, go to Rome, or go to Barcelona and Lisbon. And, and I loved to shop and I just was always looking for a way out. And so while I was working full-time as a lawyer, I started just side gigs, you know, side ventures. And I started this online shop selling, uh, items that I would bring from different countries online. And it was doing really well, but again, it was just not, it wasn't the fit. So I tried different things, you know, it wasn't just overnight. And then I was burnt out and I decided to take six weeks sabbatical, uh, and go to the Caribbean because it was a place where I had gone by myself on vacation for the first time as a, as an adult, you know, like a solo traveler type of vacation. 

Lily: And I went to St. Lucia and I stayed at this place called the Body Holiday. I had accumulated, uh, weeks of holiday. And so as a result of that trip, which turned out to be amazing, you know, and I realized there was a whole other side of the Caribbean that no one talked about outside of resorts. Um, so I said, let me go back to the Caribbean and maybe teach myself photography, which I loved, and just take time off to figure out what I'm gonna do next. Um, and the, and the six weeks turned into five months, and I went to Jamaica and I spent five months in Jamaica and started doing, getting photography gigs, you know, paid, I started my blog, which used to be called Sun and Stilettos, and built a little bit of a following, you know, and people were very intrigued at the time of seeing a different Caribbean <laugh>. 

Lily: Um, and that's where it really started. I got in touch with a couple of editors who became kind of my me, my mentor of unofficial mentors. They used to work at Matador Network. Um, and this is way back in day. And, um, I started writing just, you know, one-off digital articles and selling my photos. And, and then from there it just kind of grew. Um, and I will say that it wasn't, it, you know, people always see you doing well at something and they, they think it just happened overnight. Mm-hmm. But it didn't, you know, uh, so for about two years I was doing, uh, winter in the US and working, I'm sorry, no, spring and summer in the US and working at a law firm part-time, saving up my money, and then going to the Caribbean to do my journalism mm-hmm. <affirmative> for the winter. Yeah. And I did that for several years until I could actually make it a full-time thing. And that's when the guidebooks came in. 

Christine: Yeah. I love that you mentioned that people see where you are now and just assume that's kind of where you started, because they don't know the whole journey. And I think that's why this podcast is so important because it's, I think it's just a way that humans categorize people, so they just, you know, this is the way, I know this is the shape you must have always been in. Um, but to see all the things that happen, to get people where they're going, I think is really important. And especially when people are, are, you know, inspired to start out and launch their own business or become a travel writer, for them to realize that they can't really set them, their sights on this like last version or, you know, middle version of where you are as their goal. They have to kind of look at all the pieces to get there. So I think it's important, 

Lily: Especially as a storyteller, you know, it takes time to develop your voice and to develop confidence in what you have to say and to actually figure out what it is you have to say that's different from everybody else. It takes time. It's a skill, right. So. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. And I love that, you know, when you mentioned that you went to the Caribbean, that, you know, you were noticing those stories that you hadn't seen before. So, you know, that's kind of maybe the, that the beginning of your voice, you know, you, you recognizing that that's the thing that feels important to you and, and seeing where you are as a writer now. Like, I can see like, aha, that's where Lily was like, wait, what is, what is this all about? Yeah. This feels like the thing that is missing or important or the thing I could really, you know, lend more voice to. 

Lily: It's incredible when I think about it, you know, in hindsight, I think there was so many moments when I doubted myself, you know, and I, and I thought, wow, everybody probably thinks I'm crazy, you know, or no one's really interested and, and why this magazine's not interested in this, you know, local travel, you know? And before local travel became a thing mm-hmm. Before afar came along, even, uh, far Magazine is is one of the first I remember doing assignments for that. They, where they wanted to the local Jamaica, and they wanted, you know, the more insider kind of take on places mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but it, it wasn't that common before that. And, and then Moon Guides, which I started doing guidebooks for, they're very, you know, all about hyper local tips and, and information. Um, but, but yeah, so, so seeing it grow, you know, was, was nice at some point. It was kind of validating <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's also a lesson in, in, in, in really believing in your, in yourself, you know, and, and sticking to your guns, um, even if no one else is doing it, you know? 

Christine: Yeah. I think that's something that has come up over and over and over in these conversations as well is there's so many times when you've had to stand in that moment where people are telling you, like, you were 

Lily: Making, oh 

Christine: Yeah. A crazy choice, or God, you're not doing the right thing. And, and you have to say, no, you're wrong. <laugh>. 

Lily: Oh yeah. I mean, my family thought I was crazy for a long time. <laugh>, I quit my last, my law career and just, you know, in the beginning was like, oh yeah, take a break. You need it. Yeah, sure. And then when the break just never ended or whatever they thought was a break, you know, it was catastrophic. You know, it was kind of like, no, no, no, no. What are you gonna do next? You know, what are you getting back to? I'm a travel journalist. What? Like, it's just not Yeah. Not a thing, you know? 

Christine: Yeah. And especially I think, you know, as a, as a parent now, especially to see your child achieve something, like becoming an attorney, which might feel like such an in incredible thing to see, then to see them kind of throw that away, if you will, would be a really hard, um, that would just be, you really have to stand up for yourself to be able to combat kind of what you must have been feeling. Yeah. Period of transition. 

Lily: Yeah. I guess as a parent, you know, that makes sense. At the time I was not thinking of the parent angle. <laugh>. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Lily: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, so you mentioned, um, beginning to write guidebooks, and I know that you found yourself in Belize, and then that experience ended up becoming, you know, the opportunity to write a guidebook for the country. What was, what happened with that, um, scenario? How did that evolve? 

Lily: So yeah, that's, so that's really a pivotal time in my, my career as a travel writer because I was very close to giving up, to tell you the truth, Christine. Um, I was thinking, is there really a career in this travel writing thing? And, and am I really gonna be able to make enough money to survive? And maybe it's just not realistic. Um, and I went to a conference, and at the conference there was a former, or actually maybe he was still current guidebook author, very prolific who had also written for National Geographic, and he did a keynote and he was talking about how he used the expertise that he had in certain destinations, um, to land all of this, all of these gigs, you know, from guidebooks to expeditions, et cetera. And I was sitting there thinking, wow, I wanna do what he does. 

Lily: You know, I, maybe I should write guidebooks or maybe I should use all of the knowledge, knowledge that I accumulated on Belize and do something with it. And just to backtrack a little bit, the first time I went to Belize was the year prior to that conference, or two years prior to that conference. And it was just because I had miles and, and I had time and I wanted to go somewhere. And it was between Panama and Belize, and I chose Belize just cuz it sounded different, you know, and didn't know much about it. Um, and I was supposed to spend 10 days there, and I spent three weeks. I kept extending <laugh> and I made some friends there while I was in the Cayo District. Since you Cino Belize, I'm, I'm gonna name the districts, um, in the Western, you know, uh, district of Cayo. 

Lily: And they were like, well, if you want, you can go on a road trip with us. We're gonna drive all the way down south to the beach to Placencia. Um, and I thought, my god, a road trip. I can't miss this. So I extended my trip, <laugh> went on this really fun road trip with them. And, um, and so I spent three weeks in Belize. And when I left, I thought, my God, like, how come no one talks about Belize? This is crazy. This is an amazing little place. You know, so diverse, so many cultures and so, and nature. And so, um, so anyway, when I went to the conference on my way back home, I was at that point where I was like, I don't know if this is gonna work out. What should I do with this? And I got an email from one of my blog readers who said, Hey, I just saw this listing, you know, and I think it'd be a great fit for it. 

Lily: And I'm like, this is, what is this? And I click on it and it's actually a Craigslist entry <laugh>, and it was for authoring Moon Belize guidebook for Moon Guides. They were looking for a new author. The previous author was retiring, and I couldn't believe it. I mean, it was kind of just a sign, you know? And, and I thought, this is crazy. And I emailed the contact and asked if they were still looking, cause it was like a couple weeks old. And she immediately replied, she happened to be the, uh, acquisitions editor. And, and she said, yes, we're, I'm interviewing on Monday, and it was like a Friday. Yeah, I'm interviewing on Monday. You can get me your resume, your cover letter, and your samples by Monday. I spent all weekend basically just <laugh> crafting the perfect letter of why I was a person who knew Belize and who should write this next edition, and just putting everything together. 

Lily: And then from there, you know, it was a long process. It was like a two or three month process of submitting a book proposal, which I'd never done before. Um, but it, you know, they gave you a guideline of how to prepare for it. And, um, and just working my butt off, you know, for, for those summer months just to get that in. And eventually, um, I got selected, um, and everything changed after that because, you know, a lot of folks were trying to discourage me from doing the guidebooks. They were like, oh, there's no money in that. You know, it's so always, it's a lot of work for very little, um, and you shouldn't do it. And these were, you know, with all due respect, these were white male editors, uh, who were telling me this, who, who, who were writers, who was, who was telling me this. 

Lily: And I'm like, well, maybe for you it's, you know, not an opportunity, opportunity anymore. But for me, you know, as a black female was trying to enter into travel writing, I think it could be my leg up, you know? And, and I think it would give me credibility on the place and on the destination that editors I pitch would then pay attention, you know? Um, and it, it worked out exactly as I thought. It gave me huge credibility. Um, it was a chance to showcase my writing, my photography, and get me many, many, many more assignments for years, including from tourism boards in all sorts of types of writing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. And I imagine too, it also gave you, you know, confidence and a, you know, a place to stand on when, when you, it, you know, when you managed to do that, and I kind of see you in that moment, like answering the Craigslist ad and inventing yourself as this person, right? Like prior to, you were not Lily, the guidebook writer, you know, you were like trying to do all these things, and all of a sudden you just Yeah. That person. And I think that's one thing that's so amazing about, you know, entrepreneurship or being in freelance and all these things. You, you constantly, like, you stand at this bottom of the mountain, a bottom of this mountain, and you're, you're not the person that can get to the top of that mountain. And you're kind of standing there knowing, and you're like, no one else notices, but I'm gonna try and do this anyway. I can 

Lily: Do it. Yeah, yeah, 

Christine: Yeah. And you, and you just somehow become the person that does it. And I, yeah, those experiences are so empowering as well. And, and that's what allows you to kind of like, knock on the next door and get to the next place. 

Lily: Yes. Yeah. So at that point, you know, I, I, um, it was, I took it on full time because it just required so much focus and work, and it was fine with me. So I, I went to Belize and I just decided to do the long-term thing in Belize while I researched my book. And I did that for several years. And, and after that followed a, a Dominican Republic, um, moon guide, they basically just called me one day and were like, Hey, you know, we, we wanna do a, a Dominican Republic title because it's becoming, uh, you know, the number one destination in the Caribbean. And, you know, since you're like the Caribbean, we thought maybe you'd be interested in, in, in trying for, I still had to submit a book proposal. And I said, yeah, I thought about it for like two seconds. I <laugh> and I didn't know that they are as well as I did Belize at the time, but I was like, yeah, I can do it, you know, and it's, it's a huge country, by the way. 

Lily: So it, it's, it was a challenge. But I, I stayed a whole year in the Dominican Republic, and I just basically went from province to province and lived in different areas, and it was hands down the best, one of the best years of my life, I have to say. It was so great to discover a completely different side of this country that, that, again, no one was talking about, you know, it was always about Ana or if it's not, it's about Haiti and the Dr you know, but never the Dr in and of itself, you know, and all of the cultural differences and intricacies and in the food and, and the climate, you know, so diverse. There's a mountainous side to it, there's a beach side. So it was really great to have that experience. And I, I will never regret being a guidebook author, and every time somebody says, um, don't do it, like the guidebook says, you know, just, just throw the guidebook away. I think it's just a complete lie. It depends which guidebook you're using. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. No, I would definitely agree, because for me, um, especially before we had internet and social media and all these things, that, that is how I discovered destination. I mean, that was my, my bible and my holy grail in my backpack as I moved through a destination. Exactly. But I definitely would sit in the, you know, the bookstore or the library and read them all and find the person who I thought was experiencing a destination like me. Um, and I do think that was important because there were certain guidebooks I definitely would throw away, because that just wasn't how I wanted to engage the destination. So I love that you were able to kind of, again, like, as your, your storytelling voice is growing, like you're moving that into these guidebooks and being able to, to engage people to, you know, be present to different things in each destination that you're telling the story of. 

Christine: And, um, I, I think, you know, that's really the beginnings of probably of, you know, responsible and ethical storytelling and, and yes. And really, you know, showing all these different perspectives. Um, so how I ended up, I think besides the Belize Guidebook, which I realized farther afterward, <laugh>, um, that that was you, um, really kind of come into contact with your work was during the pandemic when you were working at skit. And, you know, this was a time when there was a, I feel like a huge shift in the way we began to talk about travel. And for me, that's where this podcast came from, was in that moment where travel was in such turmoil, and there was so much conversation about how bad tourism was, and, and all of these, you know, there was just such upheaval. I kept thinking about, you know, the people that were talking about sustainability and climate action and travel and, you know, that all these people had been doing this for years and years and years, but now seemed like the moment where if we just shine the light on them, it might be the time that these conversations could actually be on the main stage instead of like the small room. 

Christine: Yeah. Um, and that's what I kind of saw you doing is, is creating a space for these conversations and Acra a place for action around actually building travel back better. So I'd love to hear from you, like, what was that period of time like in your career with all of this happening? 

Lily: Sure. It's a big question. It's, it's <laugh>. I agree with you. I think it was such a pivotal time. Um, the opportunity came really, um, in 2020, in September-ish, 2020, I think. Uh, there was a, an article that came out that, um, listed 15 black writers that you should follow, um, in Forbes. And I think that article just got around. And as you remember, we had a, a, a really horrible summer of reckoning, uh, not just in the US but just across the world with racial tensions and riots and, you know, uh, pushback basically on, on, on so many years of oppression. Um, and so, and violence, police violence. And somehow that got translated into travel. Uh, I'm not sure <laugh> how, but that happened. And so, um, skipped, had reached out, and I, I started freelancing for them and, and I guess, um, they liked my freelance pieces, and after a couple pieces, it just so happened that their tourism reporter had left. 

Lily: And I hadn't worked full time for a single company for a long time because I'd been a freelancer. And I think it just came at a really good time when we weren't traveling. I wasn't thinking of traveling, obviously, with the pandemic, and it was a chance to weigh in on, on some, on tourism, you know, and all of the things that were happening. I could see how the Caribbean was being really hit hard. And I've always said that the Caribbean was kind of like my school for tourism. Um, when you live in places, and I know you know this, when you live in places long term or over a certain period of time, over and over, and you get to know them really well, and you really see the underbelly of tourism, uh, it, it really makes you think, and I've always been aware of, of my surroundings, I guess because of my multicultural background and how things affect different people. 

Lily: And, and I see it, you know, in the Caribbean, there's a good side of tourism. I've met so many people through my guidebooks who are making an incredible living from tourism in a healthy way, in a sustainable way. But there are also a lot of people who are just being exploited <laugh>, you know? Um, and I always told myself as a result of living in Caribbean, that I would never be part of a system that exploits other people, and I don't want to be as much as I can. So, me entering skiff at that time and bringing with me all of my experience, you know, more than a decade of being on the road and seeing how tourism really functioned before everything shut down, uh, was the chance to weigh in on, on, on the things that I cared about. You know, equity and tourism, sustainability, what does that really mean? 

Lily: Um, and I had done a little bit of, of, you know, opinionated pieces on my own blog before, but skit was definitely a shift because now I was talking to executives, uh, I was talking to leaders, you know, in the travel industry, that's our, that's the audience. You know, it's gifts. Our events are attended, were attended by, um, you know, CEOs of, of every travel company can pick up from Expedia to, you know, Airbnb, et cetera. Um, so tackling tourism, then I was, you know, in the beginning it was, it was, again, it was kind of like, who am I? You know, what's, what's the voice I'm going to bring to this? You know, how do I tackle everything that's happening in tourism and everything that people are talking about? Uh, and my, remember my editor said, I wrote a piece of my editor said, you know, I feel like you have more to say. 

Lily: Uh, I think you should just own your voice. Own what you have to say, cuz I think you have more to say. And honestly, that was, that was a shift for me. And, and I thought, oh, okay, I'm just gonna let it off <laugh>, you know, on the, on the page, you know, and I just really, juststarting started owning fully what I thought should change and how, and talking, obviously interviewing people to, to also learn about that, you know? Right. Everything from over tourism to, um, changing the success metrics, you know, moving away from just arrivals, which really means very little in the grand scheme of things. And how should we be measuring the success of tourism in the future. Um, I wrote about, um, I mean, so many things. I just, you know, it, it, it was a great opportunity to, um, to touch on the things that I think no one really was truly addressing and hearing afterwards from, you know, tourism boards, um, you know, telling me that they, they read my articles, you know, <laugh>, every time I have an article, they've all read it. 

Lily: That was just so amazing to me. I never, you know, I never expected that. And it was really, um, eyeopening, I guess, and humbling. Um, and I think there are many good people. I do think there are many good leaders in tourism who want to do the right thing. They, they want to do better. They're constrained by many factors, obviously. Cause they're not the sole decision makers, perhaps. But, but there are many folks who, who are trying to do better. Um, and that kind of gave me hope, you know, and, and pushed me forward, um, in my storytelling. And I tried to address things that, that I would see in the news that I think probably no one would talk about. You know, like South Africas, I remember South Africa launched a tourism equity fund, you know, which is really unique, uh, effort, um, unfortunately all fell apart. 

Lily: Um, but like you said, also vaccine equity. Uh, I couldn't believe that people were traveling and not caring about where they were going, where people didn't have access to vaccines yet. Uh, because I grew up, uh, when I was growing up in West Africa, there's no way I would've made it there without my vaccines. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? We were privileged enough to get vaccinations. Um, so I knew the importance of vaccination and having access to a life-saving medicine that many don't have. And so it would be absurd for me to, I mean, inconceivable, you know, to travel. And I'm gonna go to, into a community where, where they haven't had that chance to have the life-saving medicine. And so it just became really like, you know, something that was gnawing at me. And I, and I wrote that first, um, vaccine equity piece and then some follow-ups. Um, and, and I saw companies like Intrepid Travel follow afterwards from my vaccine piece. And Expedia, I think also, uh, announcing vaccine campaigns, um, and, and so on. And so, um, you can never underestimate who's reading you mm-hmm. 

Christine: <affirmative>. 

Lily: Um, and that's why when you produce content, you have to be so conscious of, of what you produce for the benefit of, of others, not just consumers, but also decision makers. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I, um, I mean the, the Vaccine e Equity article for me came at such a critical time because it was something I had been thinking about and something I had been voicing my opinion, opinion about, but mm-hmm. 

Christine: <affirmative>, you know, this was something we've never faced before, right? So we, we don't really know kind of what fight we're fighting, if we're fighting about it and how to talk about it. But something in myself, I had a, um, trip that I was supposed to bring to Guatemala, and I just going back and forth and I said, you know, I end in a, you know, some real rural and remote areas of Peru. And I said, I, I'm not gonna run my trips. And people said, why? I said, I could never live with myself if I was the person that brought any sort of illness to those communities. You know, I'm like, as a, as a traveler prior to that, even thinking about things like strep or flu, you know, those are things we can easily deal with, but when you get into some communities where they don't clean water or, you know, medicines to treat certain things, like, it's very impactful. And so when you think about something like covid and access to healthcare and, and how, you know, in the areas I had gone, they'd lost many roads. I'm like, you know, this is, this would be a huge venture to get someone to healthcare and the things they were facing. Anyway, I just, um, so reading that, it was so powerful for me to say, aha, this is something we really do need to be thinking about <laugh>. 

Lily: Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's great. Yeah. I, I, you know, sometimes it's, it's, that's how it is. You have this voice in the back of your head and then, you know, you read something that, that, that aligns. Um, I, I think that what you said about healthcare is, is a hundred percent true. You know, and I, I don't really even think people are malicious. I think that a lot of times they're just not aware enough. They haven't lived abroad. Uh, you know, they've gone just for vacation. They don't really know what it's like to have a healthcare fair in that country, um, or how much healthcare, healthcare access people have. And so you have to just break it down to them, you know? Um, somebody said to me once that, that they think my power is in being able to write in a way that, that that is, um, easy to understand, kind of like breaking down a complex issue. Um, and so I broke it down, <laugh>, that's what I was doing, breaking it down <laugh>. Yeah. You know, uh, yeah. So I wonder, I guess it resonated. I was very, very, uh, again, you know, it was great to see the, the response and, and having a, a good pairing with a powerful platform, you know, like ski. So, 

Christine: Yeah. No, I, I, I really, um, I, I really, uh, recognize and honor, you know, what that, what that really did. And I think the other thing that it did for me, talking with other people that are content creators and writers was, you know, open up our eyes to, should we be talking about social issu issues in the context of tourism? You know, you kind of mentioned how did all of these things funnel through tourism? But for me, you know, I, I feel like one of the great things about working in tourism is that everything does funnel through tourism because we are going everywhere and we're engaging in such different ways that part of that experience is understanding all these different things that are happening in destinations and, and how we impact that as we move through areas. And so, um, again, this is something I got excited about because I've been really passionate about how sustainability and gender equity intersect. 

Christine: And so, you know, a piece like this was one of the things that was like, oh, I think we're at a space where we can start. I like really looking into some of these things. And so I would love for us to spend, you know, a little bit of time talking about the responsibility we hold as travel writers and content creators and storytellers of people in place. And like, did you have an awareness of kind of that power at a certain point? And for people who are listening and hadn't really thought about this, what are things they might be reflecting on or how can they understand like what that far reaching impact is and the responsibility we do have? 

Lily: Gosh, yeah. It's such a huge, uh, topic I think for me to start with. Um, I, I've just always been a, always been conscious of, of what I put on a page. Um, first of all, probably my lawyer background. <laugh> helps with that. Um, but also just, um, very early on when I had my blog and I was writing about places, um, the feedback that I would get, uh, and I understand that people always appreciate learning new things about places they, they want to learn, you know? Um, and so that's kind of how I approached it, was more sort of a, from an educational perspective, yes, have fun, but at the same time, you know, here's what you should also know. That resonated. And then from there, uh, you know, the whole influencer, um, phase <laugh> that followed that I hoped was going to disappear <laugh> to the pandemic, but did not. 

Lily: I think my advice really is you have to know why you're producing the content you're producing, and what is it giving back to the world? It can't just be about you. That's my my opinion. You know? Um, I understand people make money from posing in different outfits and whatnot, but at the end of the day, if you're truly a tourism advocate, you should know what your platform or what your content brings to other people. And it could be joyful things, but just what does it bring? What is it teaching us about the world? What is it teaching us about other people like us across the world? That's what tourism is at the end of the day, you know? Yes. It's fun. And at the same time it's a responsibility. At the same time, it's tourism is economic development for many places. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, it's their, it's their, um, the food they put on the table. 

Lily: It's not just entertainment for a lot of people. So how do you balance and use your privilege, um, to get a, to, to, to, you know, to highlight, you know, folks who perhaps don't have the platform that you have, but bring something valuable as well to the world. So I've always felt like there are undertones of, of saviorism, you know, when people try to tell stories about how they did something great abroad, it always kind of comes off a bit. I don't know, a bit icky kind of, because it's like, oh, here's a, you know, here are these women, you should help them. You know, it's, but there's a way to tell stories that isn't savior, savior type, you know, that doesn't have that tone. Um, and the way to think about it is that, you know, yes, you're bringing, you're bringing the economic side of it, you know, with your tourism dollars, but on the other hand, you're getting a, a valuable exchange. 

Lily: You're getting culture, heritage, you know, that you can't get anywhere else, or that you wouldn't have the experience with anyone else. So it has value. It may not be dollars that you see, but as I've said before, um, on a different, um, I, I've said this many times when I talk to people, and it's like, don't make it sound like it's a charity. You know, it's not charity. It's a, it's an exchange. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the cultural exchange with different forms of compensation. Mm-hmm. Um, so when you're telling the story, you know, be aware of that. Be aware of what your story brings, what are you teaching us? What's the wonderful human exchange you had? Or lesson is always a lesson, so what's the lesson? You know? And then we learn through you and put voices, you know, in your stories of people from those places, you know, because it's not your culture, it's not your heritage, it's what you're learning through them. 

Lily: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, you know, that's one of the ways that I try to, um, to balance my stories is, is to, to share, but through the voices of others. And I'm very conscious about the voices I use increasingly so, um, after being a business reporter, um, I see a lot of stories about a lot of places that, that completely lack diversity, uh, and a diverse perspective. And, you know, that's a failure for all of us. We don't learn anything from that, uh, from hearing this same voices. So I, I do that even today. I try as much as I can to, you know, even if it takes me extra time, and it almost always does, but that's fine. That's not an excuse. And, and I do it. Um, so I, you know, if, if I'm talking about a certain destination, there's no way I'm not gonna have, you know, for, let's say I, I had a Caribbean story, uh, come out today. Um, it wouldn't sit right with me to not have a Caribbean voice in there, or two or three, you know, just as much as it can and balance it with obviously the resort owners, you know, or luxury resorts, and often not owners of color. So, so yeah. All of, you know, it requires intention and you just have to care. It's really that simple. You just have to care. 

Christine: Yeah. I, I love that. Thank you so much for, for sharing your perspective on that. And I do think an intention is a huge, a huge piece of it. Just if, like you said, if, if you know why you're doing it and you know who this story is about and for, and, and what you want the action to be as a result of someone reading that story, then I feel like you're, you know, you, you're on the right path, and you might still have, you know, an impact you didn't intend, or you might, you, you know, you might not get it right in air quotes for pe people listening to the podcast. Yeah. It's hard to tell what's, what's right all the time or, you know. Right, 

Lily: Right, right. 

Christine: But I, I think when you're operating from that place, because it can get very intimidating then if you are conscious of all these things to then not just be paralyzed and not do anything because you're, you're, yeah. 

Lily: Paralyzing. 

Christine: I understand what the pieces are, but 

Lily: I understand. I mean, it comes easy to, again, you know, it comes easy to me because I have this multicultural background, you know, I'm a black woman, you just get, you know, move around places easier, and some places are not all, but it's, I get it. You know, it's, it's, uh, and, and you know what, doing a guidebook got me over my fear of talking to random people, which isn't as easy, you know, even when you've been raised like multicultural like me, I, I had to just talk to completely random strangers every day, at least like maybe six or seven or 10 people per day, you know, from the, you know, the food cart owner to, you know, the hotel manager to, I mean, whoever, and just talk to them. And that got me over my fear very quickly. Yeah. Uh, of, of approaching people and not knowing to say, or if you're saying it right, or if you're saying right words, and now it's even worse. I mean, now it's, now it's like, watch out what word you say, but yeah, so <laugh>, yeah. Um, don't you just start somewhere 

Christine: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I was gonna say, don't you also find that in those conversations too? I think the thing for me that is really, uh, what I love about is then you find that everybody, you know, well, one, you, you really realize every person is a person and every person has such an interesting story. And then the more you do that as well, like the, the more excited you are about like, overcoming that discomfort in order to, to hear that, that story. 

Lily: Yeah. I find that most people are very receptive of, of you being interested in, in who they are and what they do and where they're from. Um, I think that there's an, you know, and I could give you an example, but I've been on, on a trip where, you know, you have two, three journalists who just walk into a market. They have their cameras out and they just want pretty photos. Um, but there's no real genuine interest in the folks who are selling in the market, who by the way, are standing there for hours selling their stuff, and they just need to make money for the day and go home. They have families, they have things to do, they're running a business, you know? Um, but these influencers will come in and, and just want their pictures, and then when it doesn't go their way, um, they'll go back and say, oh, they were so not friendly, you know, I don't know why they were so unfriendly, you know? 

Lily: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so if, if, if you just pause and remember that everyone, like you just said, is a person with a life and a business, you know, it's just common sense, right? Uh, would you do that back in, I don't know, the US or the uk? Probably not. You wouldn't just walk in and put a camera in front of someone and click, you know, and not talk to them. That's just I not happening. So why would it happen overseas? You know, it's, it's just common sense. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, treat people like people, you know, and, and just say, hi, you know, I'm so curious. What's this? I'm, I'm new here. It's my first time traveling here. These are some of the things that I say. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's my first time in Antigua, you know, I'd love to try some fruits from here. Can you show me? 

Lily: You know? And most of the time people will be more than happy, you know, and at the end of your exchange, you know, you can say like, do you mind if I take a picture? And almost always it's, I guess mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, buy some stuff, obviously <laugh>, and then, yeah, not always. Of course, that doesn't always apply. It's just very tricky. Right. Um, but we can't treat people like they're just exhibits. Um, you know, they're humans. They, they have lives and have a lot going on too. So, yeah. Um, I would hope that the last three years have, um, enlightened more people in terms of like how we treat each other, you know, abroad and how we approach our stories, um, and, and how we go about sharing what we learn on the road. I will say that I think it has with many people, but I think that it's not as many as it should have been. 

Lily: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I, I think that, um, a lot of the same old, same old has continued. And, um, and I just wanna say by the way, I meant to men mention this earlier, but about the part about me writing all those articles at Skit, um, I will say that, you know, it's, it, you, you don't see it when you're not the one doing it, but it, it takes a toll. There's a real mental toll to writing about the really difficult issues in tourism. Right. And, um, and it's very hard to do day in, day out. And so after two years of doing it, it was, it was really, really hard for me to continue. Um, and I think that a lot of people don't realize that. Uh, so if you're beating yourself up thinking, oh, I should write about these important issues all the time and, and whatnot, no. 

Lily: You know, you don't have to, you can just, um, you know, mix up your content, you know, occasionally talk about something you've noticed so that you've learned about, you know, but don't beat yourself up thinking you have to write these heavy pieces all the time, because I don't think it's good, you know, mentally it's, it's, it takes a toll. This is a real issues involving real people. And for me it was very, it was almost very personal cuz I've lived it, you know, and, and I know people in, I know a lot of people in tourism a lot mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, who get a fair shake and who don't as well. So it was, that part was hard for me. And I, and I needed to take a break after a couple of years and, um, and travel was returning. So, um, it was great that I had an opportunity open up to write for consumers again. So, so yeah. 

Christine: Thank you. I, I think that's really powerful because I do know a lot of people that that's their area of focus and I, I see what it does take of them and they, and they feel really responsible to continue to create content in that way. And I, I honor them for that, but I also see how heavy it is to stay in that space all of the time. And I think it's really important to, like, like you said, allow yourself to 

Lily: Yeah. 

Christine: You know, you, you're having a huge impact whether you're writing one article or five article Yes. 10 articles. Absolutely. And so it's, I think, good to recognize 

Lily: It as well. Yeah. Self-care. I think self-care is a very underrated thing as a trouble journalist or trouble non, you know, digital creator. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> self-care is critical and that comes first. 

Christine: Yeah. Um, well, before we end, I would love to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit about Tourism Lens. I know that's what I really was excited when I saw you were launching, you know, that aspect of your business, and I'd love to hear more about what you're doing there. Oh, 

Lily: Sure. Thank you. Yeah. So, um, <laugh>, speaking of not wanting to talk about issues all the time, I still went ahead and created a, a, like, of an a revamped media platform called Tourism Lens. And it's really more of my content in terms of telling sustainability stories around travel. There's a Newy side, which is more for the industry because I've brought with me a lot of folks who used to follow my work at Skit and, and have subscribed. And then there's a consumer facing side, which will be, um, tips from the road, sustainability stories. And it's very new. It's only just like two months old. So eventually the plan is to, um, to grow it with contributors from different parts of the world to, uh, reflect the diverse perspectives that I believe, um, should exist, you know, about the travel industry from various corners. And so that's, that's really my dream is to grow it, to have multiple con contributions. And I've also, um, kicked off a series of interviews with sustainability, um, folks who are either, you know, gonna be either, uh, leaders or, you know, anyone in, in, in sustainability who, um, who's doing great work and interesting work in their destination. So I hope it becomes, you know, this hub of where people go to read about the things that, uh, that many people don't wanna talk about, you know? But that is independent, honest, um, and, uh, and, and, and showcases folks in tourism who might not have had the opportunity. 

Christine: Yeah. Thank you. I, um, I can't wait to see, you know, what that looks like in a year or two or, or three. And I, I really, I do think that there, there's so many people that will get behind, you know, the intention that you have for this. So I, I, I wish you, you know, I hope so. <laugh> so much momentum for it. And, uh, yeah. Well the, the last thing I have, um, before we end is just a series of rapid fire or rapid fire ish questions in our, in our call <laugh>. Um, the first one is, what are you reading right now? 

Lily: Oh my goodness. I'm actually not reading anything right now, although I have a bunch of books on my, on my list. But no, I have not had any time to read between, uh, work full-time and my side newsletter for Tourism Land. So, um, I usually always, honestly, I'm always in tourism, um, articles, you know, either academic articles or stories. So 

Christine: Yeah. When you're researching and reading all the time for everything else, it, it finds it's 

Lily: Hard. It's hard. 

Christine: Yeah. I recently just picked up something that was complete, just like lighthearted reading, which I haven't done in such a long time. And I was like, at first I was really resisting it because I felt like, what, what did, I'm wasting my time in this. Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>. And now just even the last couple days as I go to bed, I'm like, oh, I'm finding, I'm really excited to just read again and not falling asleep and like, reconnecting to, you know, that. So I think it's good to do one sleep too. <laugh> for 

Lily: Now. For now I've focused on, on, um, working out again and, and getting back, um, on my health track. So I've been walking. That's my, my hiking my big thing right now. So no, I have not had time. Yeah. 

Christine: Um, well, uh, the next, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel? 

Lily: Oh my gosh. Well, my laptop for sure. <laugh>, uh, my laptop, my iPhone, uh, in my a scarf. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> always. I always have a scarf cause I'm always chili in places and it could use, it has many uses, you know, cover my hair, all kinds of things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, gosh, what, what else? Yeah, I guess that's, yeah. My makeup bag. Yeah. You know, basics. I'm pretty simple. <laugh>, 

Christine: Those are the, are good, are good things to have. Um, to sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while and be, um, immersed and connected to a place. Uh, where is a place that you would love to sojourn? Oh 

Lily: My gosh, my list is so long. I would love to go to Cape Verde, explore there for a while. I'd love to go to, uh, Botswana and maybe Goana Safari. I've never gone on Safari before. I'd love to go to Egypt. Mauritius, I mean, the list is like <laugh>. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Lily: Really long. I know it. My problem, my problem is that I'm not very good with short stays. Um, I don't get a lot of satisfaction out of a week long stay. It actually frustrates me. And, um, and so it's tough, you know, I, I gotta figure out how to stay for a month at least. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. But, uh, Peru's also up there. I'm hoping to make it this year to Peru. 

Christine: Um, I have the same problem. Like I would wish I could just move everywhere. 

Lily: Yeah. Yeah. From 

Christine: Like three or four months or a year and yeah. Not very practical, I guess. Um, what is something that you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been? 

Lily: Oh, that's such a good question. Uh, I would definitely say, um, Ethiopian food takes me right back to my, everything about me. I guess my heritage, my mom's cooking and my visits, Ethiopia visits. Um, yeah, there's nothing like Ethiopian food for me. It's like number one. 

Christine: Yeah. Um, who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world? 

Lily: Hmm. I would say probably my dad. My dad was the one who really opened the gates, you know, and, and encouraged me to, um, to go study abroad, uh, when I was a teen. So I think that even though he probably never imagined that I would <laugh> continue on to become a digital nomad, um, I think that that, uh, this constant encouragement of, you know, you can do anything. You, you're, you can be independent, you can do what you love, and you can be successful and you can be smart and you can be someone, you know. Um, that was always the message, you know? And, and, and I'm, I'm pretty sure none of that would've happened if he wasn't such a, a strong believer in education. And part of that is, is world education through travel. 

Christine: Yeah. Thank you. Um, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real alive or past, who would it be? 

Lily: Oh my gosh. Fictional adventure. Um, gosh, I think Nelson Mandela, I'd love to meet, um, emperor Elace. It was, uh, a former emperor in Ethiopia, very iconic African leader. Um, gosh, she said fictional or, 

Christine: Yeah, that's, those are both beautiful 

Lily: Examples. Fictional. Okay. <laugh>, fictional 

Christine: Or real Alive or past. Yeah. Um, the last one is, uh, soul of Travel is a place for honoring women in the tourism industry. Uh, who is one woman you admire and would love to recognize in this space? 

Lily: That's right. I forgot you had that question there. Ah, I should have given, but <laugh>, there's so many amazing women. Um, gosh, I could shout out my friend Andrea Reese, who, um, is in Toronto, Canada, um, who I really admire because she passes on her Jewish ancestry and heritage to her kids in such a beautiful way, you know, through her cooking, through celebrations, um, you know, religious ceremonies. Uh, and I think that's hard to do in the modern day, and she does it really nicely. Amazing. Um, and oh my gosh, I could think of so many women. It's so hard to pick. I, I, I really honor women who, um, speak up women in tourism who are unafraid and speak up of what's right and what's wrong. And, uh, for example, there's a lady called Mel Martinez, who's, uh, an indigenous garifuna in, in Hopkins Belize. Um, and I, I really admire her fearlessness in speaking up about what what she thinks is, is not going well in Belize tourism and what is and why, um, the indigenous CUNA have to look out for themselves as opposed to being exploited. Um, women are just, you know, uh, this tourism industry wouldn't be anything without women, um, period, you know, at any level. Yeah. Uh, but I, I could name, I could name so many. I just, I don't wanna really feel like any people are gonna be like, you left me out 

Christine: <laugh>. Yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll know that you are honoring and recognizing many of them, even without mentioning their name. But I, I love what you said about how vital women's roles are, and it's one thing through this podcast that like every person I meet, you know, kind of opens the door to 5, 10, 15 more women who are doing amazing things at all, you know, all levels of the tourism industry, and not just in, in exec executive roles, but as community leaders. And, you know, going back to how we say that, that tourism really is, you know, in integrated into all these aspects of our world, it really, it's so important, I think, to have these conversations and, and bring these stories, you know, out into, to the world. 

Lily: Yes, I agree. Thank you for doing that on your podcast. 

Christine: Thank you. Uh, well, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. I have been looking forward to it for quite a long time, far before I even asked you and just imagined that we might have this conversation. So thank you for, for joining me and, um, for sharing, you know, your story with us here on the podcast today. 

Lily: Thank you so much for having me, Christine. It was really fun talking to you today and, um, and really meaningful. So thank you. 

Christine: Thank you.