Thoughtful Travel and Podcasting with Amanda Kendle

In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Amanda Kendle, host of the Thoughtful Travel Podcast.

Amanda’s motto is: Why just have one career when I can do everything I love all at once? In March 2016, Amanda launched The Thoughtful Travel Podcast, one of the most downloaded travel podcasts in Australia. She speaks with fellow travel-lovers about many of the wonderful ways travel has changed their lives, but also about how we can make sure that travel is a force for good for others, too. As a passionate advocate for thoughtful travel, Amanda tries to stay immersed in this space, and this has led to her role as the Vice President of the board of the RISE Travel Institute. Amanda also offers social media and blogging training and speaking engagements, where she facilitates workshops, training sessions, and keynote addresses on online presence, digital marketing, and responsible tourism.

Christine and Amanda discuss:

· Amanda’s podcast, The Thoughtful Travel Podcast
· Amanda’s travel blog, Not a Ballerina, and what it has been like to keep up a travel blog for nearly 20 years!
· What Amanda loves about podcasting
· RISE Travel Institute and the work RISE is doing to educate and inspire mindful travelers and travel professionals
· The importance of mindful travel

Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Amanda Kendle.

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To read our episode blog post, access a complete transcript, see full show notes, and find resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to the Soul of Travel Website. 

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Visit NotABallerina.com to read Amanda’s travel blog!

Subscribe to the Thoughtful Travel Podcast on Apple or Spotify.

Connect with Amanda for consulting or speaking.

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• 16:05 (Cont.) Thoughtful Travel and Podcasting with Amanda Kendle

Transcript

Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel, women's wisdom and mindful travel. I'm your host, Christine Winebrenner Irick. Each week you'll hear me having soulful conversations with women who are tourism professionals, trailblazers, and community leaders around the world. They share their personal and professional journeys to inspire you and their stories teach you how to become a more conscious traveler, live life aligned with your values, and create a positive impact.

Christine: We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers. And this is the soul of travel.

Christine: Today's guest is a fellow travel podcaster who is equally passionate about mindful travel. Amanda Kendle is the host of the thoughtful travel podcast, which launched in March of 2016. And it is one of the most downloaded travel podcasts in Australia. On the podcast, she speaks with fellow travel lovers about many of the wonderful ways travel has changed their lives, as well as how we can make sure that travel is a force for good.

Christine: Some of her topics include ethical volunteerism, sustainable and regenerative travel, and the personal benefits of travel. She is also a passionate advocate for thoughtful travel, which led her to her role as the vice president of the board of Rise Travel Institute. Her blog, notaballerina. com turned 19 years old in 2024 and is a travel blog to encourage everyone to go traveling because she knows they'll get so much out of the experience.

Christine: In our conversation, we talk about how she chose her unusual travel blog name and what it has been like to have a blog for almost 20 years. She shares what she loves about podcasting and the importance of mindful travel. And we spend perhaps just a little bit too much time talking about how much we love RISE Travel Institute and the work they're doing to educate travelers and professionals to be more conscious travelers.

Christine: Before we get to this episode, I want to take a moment to thank this month's partner Safety Wing. I'm so excited about this partnership and I'll share more about Safety Wing and their Nomad Insurance later in this episode. Thank you again for your support of the podcast. It really means so much to me and to our listeners.

Christine: I hope you enjoy this soulful conversation with Amanda Kendle.

Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm your host, Christine. And today I'm really excited to be sitting down with a fellow podcaster, Amanda Kendle. Um, she's joining me from Australia and so she's beginning her day while I'm ending mine. So we'll see what happens with us today. It's both being in those head spaces for our conversation, um, but I'm so excited to welcome you to the podcast.

Christine: We've been following each other for years, virtually, um, we were just saying before we hopped on, it feels like we should know each other by now, but it's. It's our first time meeting, um, but I'm really happy to have you here today. 

Amanda: Thank you so much, Christine. Yes. Um, ditto to all of that. And I'm really happy to be here.

Amanda: I, I feel like you're one of my real sister podcasts, so it's, um, really nice and I'm so looking forward to this chat, even though it is 6am here, but, um, usually that's my good time of day. So fingers crossed. 

Christine: Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's hard when we're trying to talk to people all around the world to find.

Christine: a good time for some of those pockets. Um, and I definitely relate to like sister content. Like when I first saw your podcast, I was like, Oh, this is so brilliant. And also like very similar and yet not similar because it's always interesting how people's voice, you know, just changes the story a little bit.

Christine: But, um, yeah, I was so inspired and then like, wait, should I still be doing this? And then I thought, you know, she's all the way in Australia. I can probably also do my podcast. Um, and then even preparing for this today, I was like, Oh, I wonder how many shared contacts we have on LinkedIn. And I was like, Page after page after page.

Christine: And I was like, Oh, this is so good. Like we have such good alignment. So all that to say, I'm just so happy to have you here. Uh, but as we begin, Amanda, I'd love to just turn it over to you and let you introduce yourself to our, my listeners and, um, let them know a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Amanda: Right. Um, thank you. It's, uh, hard to know where to start because I've had a, uh, an interesting and varied career in this space, but essentially I have been traveling a lot all my life. I lived abroad from Australia in my twenties. I spent many years living in Japan and Slovakia and Germany. And during those years is when, um, This, I suppose, kind of started this real, um, extra passion for travel and sharing about it.

Amanda: I actually began as a magazine writer and then one of my editors said, Oh, I've got this friend who runs a blog and, uh, he, I think you could do that. That'd be, you should, you know, you should work for him. And I was like, I don't even know what a blog is. And he's like, they pay you every week. And I'm like, okay, that sounds like a great plan.

Amanda: So I started blogging initially for a site that actually got bought by Condé Nast a few years after that. So that's where my blogging began. I then began, you know, I thought, Oh, I should have a blog of my own to show magazine editors, you know, some of my work and a bit of a portfolio. And then I just really liked writing my own blog about travel.

Amanda: So that was Not a Ballerina, which is, um, very, getting very old. It's, um, It's an adult blog now, . It's, uh, started in 2005, so it's, it's uh, um, a late teenager now. And eight years ago I decided to turn that also into a podcast because I love to talk. I had really loved listening to podcasts and it seems crazy to say this now, but eight years ago I was worried I was too late to start podcasting because it felt like there were a lot of podcasts around already.

Amanda: But I realize now it was. It's still early days. And so that's when I started the Thoughtful Travel podcast, uh, because I, partly because I had a young child at the time and I live in Perth in Western Australia, which is one of the most beautiful, but also one of the most isolated cities in the world. And I realized I wasn't going to be able to travel too much or as much as I would in You know, had in previous decades, um, for the, for the next little while.

Amanda: And so I thought, well, if I've got a podcast, I can talk to lots of people who, about travel, which is, I think kind of often as good as traveling because I love those conversations. I get to meet really cool people and they teach me a lot. And all of those things are kind of a lot of what I love about traveling.

Amanda: So my podcast kind of started as a way to, um, to get over the fact that I would be a little bit stuck in, in Western Australia for the next decade or two. So, um, yeah, so eight years on. I still love doing it. Um, and it's kind of all seeped into the other parts of my life too. So like, for example, I run social media training for the tourism council members here in WA.

Amanda: So I get to work with lots of tourism businesses. Uh, I teach podcasting at the university. So, um, it's had a big impact on all parts of my life, um, in a really fun way. So that's me in a nutshell. 

Christine: Yeah. Thank you for sharing some of that. And I think some will go back into a little bit more in depth, but I love that you were thinking that your podcasting journey started too late because.

Christine: Even now, when you talk to people starting podcasts and people that, you know, teach podcasting as, as you do, so maybe you say this, but people are like, podcasting is still small. As a medium, like there's still lots of room for new voices. And when you look at it compared to, you know, YouTube or other platforms that have so many users that really.

Christine: Podcasting is still. Height is relatively small. 

Amanda: It absolutely is. But the biggest shift has been when I started and I would tell people that I have a podcast, like, I don't know, 90 percent of people would say, a what, or, oh, I've never listened to one of them. But these days, you know, I think it's probably the other way around.

Amanda: And only 10 percent of the people I would say would, I would speak to would say, huh, a what? So that's been a really positive shift. But you're still, you're absolutely right. There's still so much space. 

Christine: Yeah. Well, and when I started my podcast, I didn't really know what podcasting was and didn't listen to podcasts yet.

Christine: So even, you know, that was four years ago for me. And, um, learning, like, okay, what is a podcast? You know, I knew I wanted to interview people. It came right in the beginning of the pandemic where I started and I wanted to be talking to people that were really making a lasting impact. And that I knew even though there was a pandemic, they were going to, well, when I started it, we didn't even know what 

Amanda: it was going to 

Christine: be.

Christine: But I thought at least we should have some really important conversations over the next two weeks or a month or something while this got sorted out. Um, and, uh, and. You know, I, I didn't really know what podcasting was. Um, When I first started, I was terribly uncomfortable trying to figure out the technology and then holding space for conversations.

Christine: Not everyone was as comfortable on Zoom yet as they are now. And, um, and then I, much like you, like quickly realized that this was It's the magic. Like, this is the coolest thing anybody gets to do ever. 

Amanda: It's absolutely right. I must say the pandemic was a blessing because before that, most people, the majority wouldn't turn their video on.

Amanda: I used Skype back then, majority would not turn their video on for me. And I'm a much better interviewer when I can see people because I interrupt a lot less because otherwise I'm trying to make noises so they know I'm still listening. Whereas if they can see me, I can nod along. Um, so the pandemic was fabulous because now I.

Amanda: I've never had anyone say, Oh no, I don't want my video turned on. So they're, everyone's used to it now. So COVID did something useful. Yeah. Yeah. Massive shift over practically overnight. It changed. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, I have only had one ever and it was very difficult because like you said, it's just like if you're speaking with someone in, you know, real life that you're reading their cues and you're relating even though you're not in the same space.

Christine: And so when you don't have that, you're just sitting here. In the void, wondering what on earth is happening. And then I also remember, remember when we used to talk on the telephone? So it was probably like that. 

Amanda: Oh, is that what we used to do with those things? 

Christine: Yeah. Here's how that works. 

Amanda: Technology's always changing.

Christine: Yeah. Uh, well, before we get too far, I would love to hear from you a little bit about your early travel experiences and, um, how they've evolved and maybe how that has begun to shape the way that you think about travel now. 

Amanda: Mmm. So I was super, super lucky when I was nine, my f family decided that we would, uh, take six months out of school and go to Europe on a very budget trip.

Amanda: Uh, we bought a motorhome camper van and drove around, well, Western Europe then because, uh, you know, it was 1985, so it was, uh, pretty expensive. Too tricky to get into Eastern Europe. Um, we're fortunate we have a thing called long service leave down here. So my dad was paid by the bank where he had worked for decades, um, while we traveled.

Amanda: So it's the only way we could, could have done it. But my mum wanted to take us there because she had She, they had never, um, travelled to Europe, um, my dad had worked in Papua New Guinea. That was the only experience abroad they'd had. But my mum had this feeling that things would evolve and I would end, or one of us, my sister or I, or both, would end up living in Europe and so she wanted to see it.

Amanda: Which I've always thought was funny because, I mean, it's a totally self fulfilling prophecy, because of course spending six months slow travelling, budget travelling through Europe gave me the travel bug in such a massive way that yes, I did end up living in Europe, But perhaps I mightn't have if, um, if my mum hadn't decided that that was a good idea.

Amanda: So, but that being the first of my travels, I think really set the scene for, I never expected to stay in fancy hotels. I didn't stay in fancy hotels for decades. I didn't really know what they were. Uh, and I loved being on the ground, going into local supermarkets, uh, chatting to new people, uh, the, you know, changes in language and currency fascinated me.

Amanda: So, uh, All of those things remain today as like a strong, important part of my travel experience. So that was very impactful. And then at 14, I went on a school trip, a language trip to Germany for a month. And it happened to coincide with the reunification of East and West Germany. And not only that, I happen to be staying in Berlin with a family where the dad was from West Berlin and the mom was from East Berlin on the very night of reunification.

Amanda: And so they took me to Brandenburg Gate in the center of Berlin for the moment at midnight of reunification. And obviously that was very emotional and also very impactful. So those two circumstances shaped for me what travel is all about. And it's not about ticking off, um, you know, I've been to the Eiffel Tower and now I'm going to the Tower of London.

Amanda: It's, it's about, um, you know, finding ways to immerse and getting to know local people, local cultures. So, uh, I think I have. Um, always wanted to travel that way and it was kind of a natural state after I finished university and had worked for a bit here in Australia, I moved abroad to teach English. Um, I actually didn't know that I liked teaching at that stage.

Amanda: I hadn't done much of it since then. I've, most of my, um, my non media career has been related to teaching cause I discovered I love it, but I was teaching English cause that was what you could do to move to Japan. So I lived in Japan for a couple of years and then moved on to Europe, to Slovakia. Pre EU, which was really interesting, and Germany.

Amanda: So, uh, I, um, yeah, just, I would, I would encourage anyone to travel in those ways because I think that is how you become a thoughtful traveler, by having more time in a place, by getting to understand a place better, and by really trying hard not to have like that FOMO of, Oh, I must see site XYZ and tick all of these places off.

Amanda: Because I don't think that's traveling. I just think that's collecting. I don't know, nowadays it's probably just collecting selfies. And it's not the point, I don't think, of travel. It's fun, but you don't go home and change your life because you saw the Eiffel Tower. 

Christine: Yeah. Oh, goodness. Um, one, I've been talking a lot about how early travel experiences shape people.

Christine: You know that when you have study abroad or when you have the opportunity to travel as a child or, um, you know, slower travel experiences, like you mentioned, because it really does just shape your global viewpoint because it's just, it's context that you can't get any other way. Yeah. 

Amanda: Yeah. 

Christine: It doesn't matter how many times you read something.

Christine: Even now, it doesn't matter how many times you see it on Instagram, which, you know, we, we had, didn't have that growing up, right? We didn't have the world at our fingertips in the same way we could have read about it and maybe watched a movie or something, but even so, there's just something about being somewhere that really allows you to understand like the vastness of the world and the complexities of things.

Christine: You have to like see and feel those differences. And like you said, even just that money is different or that stores are different. Like it seems really simple, but it actually is. It's so pivotal in painting a better picture of the world, I think. Um, and I cannot believe that you were able to witness such an experience in Germany.

Christine: And I can understand that. Like, I mean, You may, you might not really want to ever experience anything like that again, but the idea that you never probably will, like it's such a, a special moment. And it really, again, to like have that depth of an experience, there's just, I think there would just be so little that would match that.

Christine: And so that feeling I think is what some of us, when you have those really powerful moments, then you find yourself Like chasing the powerful moments and not the, the things, like you said, that you're checking off a box, like you're like, Oh, I hope I can feel that moved again or that connected again, instead of like, I can't wait to see the next monument or, you know, and it's not that that's completely an unenjoyable type of travel.

Christine: But I just think for those of us that have had this opportunity to kind of see the other side of. You know, the box or whatever, we're like, wow, that, that was actually really meaningful. And so, um, I would love to talk a little bit more about that because I know that's something that both you and I focus on so much is this aspect of why we travel instead of where we travel, which is kind of what I, how I've been, you know, We've been using that language lately.

Christine: I feel like that makes the most sense quickly to people. They're like, what is meaningful travel or conscious travel or even sustainable travel? I'm like, it's just like, why, why are you traveling? Please just understand that. And I think it will shift everything. Um, but for you, how did, you That translate like into your career because you said you started working, writing, blogging, but I don't think initially you were always focused on, 

Amanda: that's right.

Amanda: You know, 

Christine: more mindful travel or thoughtful travel. 

Amanda: Yeah, no, absolutely right. Uh, at the beginning I just like to talk about general travel experiences and I hadn't, um, yeah, I hadn't thought that. deeply about it. Um, so two things, I think. One is that I'd been so fortunate to have what I now see were very thoughtful travel experiences.

Amanda: Uh, and looking back, I could see, okay, that's why I liked those kinds of things. That was mostly luck rather than good planning. Um, I could have just been the normal Australian who went to, um, Europe backpacking for six months on a Contiki tour at 19. And then I would have had that normal kind of ticker box kind of experience first, so it might have taken me longer to think about, um, you know, what I think about today.

Amanda: Um, and I think a key thing, weirdly, was, uh, Over time, through my blog, I would start to have people, like, suggest things to me. So I remember, for example, once, um, I was going to Bali for the first time. In Western Australia, it's cheaper to go to Bali than to drive five hours south to stay and holiday in Western Australia.

Amanda: But I had never been because to me, I thought in Bali, there are one million Australians and I've already got them here. They just drinking more beer. So I'd never been, but then I thought, Oh no, you know, I should experience it once. So I went. Um, and, uh, one of my old students, one of my old, she was from France, in fact, and she wrote a thing on Facebook where I, you know, I must've said, I'm off to Bali.

Amanda: And she wrote like a paragraph about don't ride an elephant. And I was a bit at first, I was like, cause it's many, many years ago. And I was like, Ah, why not? What if I did want to? You know, my mum rode an elephant in Thailand like, you know, decades before that, or whatever, a long time before that. Um, and so I always remember that as being the first time someone had sort of, um, and they hadn't called me out because I hadn't done anything wrong yet, but given me this sort of thing to think about.

Amanda: And I'm always really grateful for her because after that I started to pay more attention to what people would say. And when I then began my podcast and I thought, I need to have a bit of an angle here. And I'd started to sort of think more about this. And I thought, okay. And even when I say, if you go back to the early episodes of the Thoughtful Travel podcast, I don't think I really knew what Thoughtful Travel meant to me then either.

Amanda: But I felt that, it was important to try to be more thoughtful. And so I've really learned all of the things that I now believe through my guests. And I guess that's another part of that I think that is important is I don't judge people who've done whatever they've done in the past, or even if they plan something that I think is, you know, not thoughtful, like going on a cruise with 6, 000 people, I'm a bit skeptical about the, the thoughtfulness of such a trip.

Amanda: Um, but when it's kind of going back to your why question. So. If they've thought about why they're travelling in a certain way, and they're just more intentional about it. Like, I don't expect anyone to travel quote unquote perfectly, uh, but I want them to think about the decisions that they make. I mean, back home we think about, like, if we're going to buy a new TV, we often will do quite a lot of research, you know, what's the best TV for this and that, but often people will travel without doing much research.

Amanda: into, like, the things that are important when you travel. They'll just be looking for the best price or, uh, I don't know, stuff like that. So, um, that whole, yeah, exactly. Why do we travel? And can you think about it a bit more? Both in the decision making process and once you're there and afterwards, think about it some more as well.

Amanda: So I'm so sorry. I've forgotten what the gist of the question was and I hope I've answered you, but, um, 

Christine: you're great. I don't remember what the question was either. So we're on the same page. Perfect. No, um, I, I really, I really appreciate that. And I think the other thing that's really important about, about, you know, when you You don't know what you know until you know it.

Christine: So that's one thing. And, and many of us didn't think the same way about travel 20 or 30 years ago or 40 years ago as we do today. So I think it's really hard to, I know I have like slideshows and pictures and I have the one from, Thailand, you know, 25 years ago where, uh, we got lost somewhere actually in the jungle and we came upon someone and they let us ride elephants to get, cause we were way off track where we were supposed to be.

Christine: This'll be one of the stories that if my mom hears, I'm sorry. Yeah. And so we did and, you know, we met these villagers and, you know, then they let us feed the elephants afterward. And I know nothing about how they took care of their animals. I, you know, who knows? But I have the picture and every time I see it now, I'm a little mortified about it.

Christine: But at the moment, it was a really magical experience. It was a really, um, important one because I don't know what would have happened to us if we hadn't found those people and they like rescued us. Um, but, um, you know, it's still one of those things now that you're like, Oh, now I have to think about what did that mean?

Christine: What does that mean for other people? You know, I had this experience and I'm telling other people, they need to think about. If they should have that experience, that's the one, one of the ones that's the hardest for me is it's easy for me to say, no one should get to do that, but I've done it, so I'm not really like ruining my life's experiences or my dream of it or whatever.

Christine: Um, the same with traveling to places that are over touristed that maybe I've already been to. So it's just. It's easy for me to say, if you're going to Peru, pick somewhere other than Machu Picchu. There's lots of beautiful sights to see, but I've been to Machu Picchu, so it's, you know, it's so hard. And it's not that I don't want people to go there again.

Christine: I want them to think about if they're going, who are they going with? How are they going there? There's lots of different ways to access it. You know, that space to see it, to have a less of a, you know, harmful impact to support the economy in a different way. So it's like just shuffling your thoughts about the experience around, not necessarily not having it all together, but just thinking about it.

Christine: But I think that's one of those things that's hard when you're in this space and you're talking about these things all the time. And then you're like, Oh, yeah, that thing that I did or that thing I say people shouldn't do and I've done it or, um, I think it can feel sticky. But I also know for me, when I look back at travel experiences I had when I was younger, there was lots of times where I felt uncomfortable, or I felt like something was off or something was wrong or I just it felt It just didn't feel right to me.

Christine: And now looking back, it's because it was maybe an experience where it was more consumptive or extractive, or the power dynamic was, was really, um, visible and I didn't have language for any of those experiences, but they all felt just Yucky, essentially. Right. And what, because I didn't know how to speak about it.

Christine: And so I think the conversations we're having are so helpful for people because if they stumble across either of our podcasts, this gives them tools to begin to have conversations that they may not have already been having about travel. And I think that's one of the most important things that we can do is get people asking those same questions that your guest got you asking.

Christine: Um, Now, you know, all these years later, how do you think people respond to this topic? Um, I know like when I started and got my master's degree in sustainability, In sustainable destination management, I would tell people that's what I do and they're like, what did you just say? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Christine: And I was like, okay, let's try to figure this out. But now we're in such a different space. How different do you think the conversations feel? 

Amanda: I think it depends on where you're discussing these questions these days. There are still plenty of people who don't want to stop and think, because they want these experiences they're seeing.

Amanda: There are definitely way more people who are very happy to have these conversations, and are really open to learning more, and there's some who are, I think, too evangelistic about it, and quite judgmental of people who quote unquote, quote unquote. So I think people like you and me who can be somewhere in the middle and educating, but educating, but kindly and a resource where people can say, I should think about this.

Amanda: You know, what, what, what can I do? Where's some information? Um, how can I frame my thinking? Um, I think a really good example is the idea of, um, traveling to Antarctica. So, uh, down, down, uh, Down here, especially, I think, because we feel kind of near Antarctica, uh, there's a lot of passion for going. And especially post pandemic, there's been a lot of kind of that, you know, almost revenge travel.

Amanda: I'm going to go to Antarctica. It's expensive, but I'm going to spend that money now because what if I can't go in the future? And I've never been to Antarctica. And, uh, I have decided that I won't go because I don't think there's enough benefit to a tour, for a tourist going there. You know, yes, we can contribute to citizen science and stuff, but I think the scientists can probably do pretty much everything without us.

Amanda: And yes, it's amazing and beautiful, and I would love to see those things up close, but I think that's, that's my personal line in the sand. Um, especially because I think travel is often about giving back to communities and obviously in Antarctica there are no Indigenous people living there and I don't think the penguins want me, you know.

Amanda: So, uh, I think that is, um, it's a difficult conversation to have and everyone has their own, you know, personal how far they would go. But I think if we come back to your question of why are you traveling, even if someone can say to themselves, well, I'm traveling because. I, then they at least think about it and they say, well, I'm traveling because I've worked really hard and I really want to see X, Y, and Z places and I don't really care, you know, like, I don't really care how the people live there.

Amanda: I just want to see this beautiful landscape, but at least if they're kind of starting by thinking that that's their intention, that's already a step better. And then they're likely to probably start to think better about their impact and make better choices about, you know, the, the companies they book with and so on.

Amanda: So I think everyone's on a spectrum of choice here and I try not to judge people, but I do try and just gently suggest, Hey, let's just think about it. 

Christine: Yeah, I agree. I think holding space and being a resource is really, really important. Um, and I, I think the other thing that gets missed a lot when we're talking about Being a more mindful traveler is the fact that the mass tourism industry doesn't actually teach Travelers how to be a mindful traveler.

Christine: So that's you know, it's taught us for You know, I don't know how long the tourism industry has been in existence, but for many years it has taught us that tourism and travel is something we consume, right? And destinations and experiences and all of these things are just something we consume as an endless resource.

Christine: So this is why I think, you know, the idea of sustainable travel is so important is because places aren't limitless. And I think that It's hard to expect travelers to understand that when they're constantly being sold, like endless possibilities, it's just counterintuitive for them to feel, to see that, like they're, they haven't been shown that.

Christine: And I think it's slowly starting to shift, but you and I spend a lot of time talking with people that are already making those decisions who run those businesses, which is great because we want to support them, 

Amanda: but it's also 

Christine: But they have the smallest amount of visibility in the world of the tourism industry.

Christine: And so, this is something I come back to all the time, is that if we really want travelers to make these choices, they need to understand something different about tourism. It's, you know, it's no different than, you know, we didn't know smoking was bad until we knew it was bad. That's a great 

Amanda: example, actually.

Amanda: Exactly right. Yeah. And no better, do better. So. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. And so we were told that it was great for us. It, you know, gave us all these things and status and it's like, there's a lot of parallels, which I've never had this aha moment until right now. So it's a really good point. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it just feels like this is how we've been taught to travel.

Christine: And so we, we have to think about how we can do that differently. And that obviously starts to dig into all sorts of systems that are already in place. Um, that we have to dismantle before we can have the type of travel that we believe is more beneficial to travelers and places. Hey, it's Christine. I want to quickly share about a service that has become essential in all my travel planning.

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Christine: And today I am grateful to have them join me as a partner on the podcast so I can share about Safety Wing with all of you. If you'd like to learn more, you can find my ambassador link in the show notes, and you can also visit safetywing. com. Thanks for taking a moment to hear from me. Now let's hop back over to our soulful conversation.

Christine: I think maybe now we're going to jump all over the place, but I think this is probably a great time to jump to Rise Travel Institute. Um, because this is, um, something I love so much. And I know you are on the VP of the board of Rise Travel Institute. Um, this was one of those things when it came across my screen on LinkedIn during the pandemic.

Christine: I was like, what is this? 

Amanda: Same. This 

Christine: is the most amazing thing I have ever seen. I'm like, who is doing this? They are brilliant and courageous and I can't even believe it. Um, so let's go ahead and jump in there because they are people who are starting to really educate us about how to question. what everything around travel means and give us the tools to talk about it and start to break down some of those structures.

Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. And so I had exactly the same reaction, uh, when I first heard of the RISE Travel Institute. So RISE stands for Responsible, Impactful, Sustainable, Ethical, uh, which, you know, all very important parts of travel, I think. And it was started by the absolutely fabulous Dr. Vincy Ho. Um, based in the US, but she's out of Hong Kong originally.

Amanda: So super impressive, like very thoughtful woman. And the idea is that, yeah, exactly. Like when I first saw, um, the initial course, the, the initial, um, course that I then took, I was like, This is like a curriculum for my podcast. You know, this is all of these really important topics, you know, um, sustainable travel, um, ethical wildlife travel, um, unconscious bias, uh, you know, everything that is part of being.

Amanda: Thoughtful about how you are traveling and how you are impacting a community, um, and whether you should even travel at all, you know, uh, all of these questions. Um, and, uh, so yeah, I did the course the very first time and it ran and I was like, Oh, this is just fabulous. I loved it. Um, loved working with those people and being in a group of students all talking about these topics and they were from across the globe with such, such interesting stories behind them.

Amanda: So I got further involved in you as you, as you said, I ended up, um, as a VP on the board now because I really, really believe. in, um, in what this organization is trying to achieve. So, uh, we now also have cohorts in universities who are, you know, taking the RISE curriculum, um, you know, in tourism professionals.

Amanda: So just the idea of getting in early to really stop, make people in the profession stop and think about, you know, how can we travel better is so super important. So, um, I think. There's nothing quite like RISE Travel Institute and the people who are involved. Our board meetings are like the most joyous moments of my month because the people involved are just so like minded, but also so giving and so interesting.

Amanda: So it's a, yeah, it's a, it's an organization that I have a lot of time for and would highly recommend if you, if there's anyone listening who feels like they want to have, um, you know, that like, I love to study in general. And so to feel like you can learn about these topics. in a kind of a more, you know, research academically grounded way.

Amanda: Um, but also still very accessible. It's just super, yeah, I could not rave more about it. Just so interesting. Uh, and yeah, really kind of got me to stop and think about a lot of the things I had learned, especially learned from my podcast guests over the years, but kind of contextualize it and put, you know, put some framework to it.

Amanda: And, um, Um, think back about how all of these things have evolved, you know, like you were saying before, um, and how, you know, we've got to dismantle a lot of those things before we can move forward.

Christine: Yeah. And it's one of, it's also, I mean, I think it really is such an impressive course because it gives you a lot of personal ownership. It's also a really challenging course because it gives you a lot of personal ownership. Like, yes, you. You, you don't come out of it unscathed. Like I, like I said, I have my master's in, in sustainable tourism management and like, it was easy for it to be a detached experience, learning about case studies, everything was very external, right?

Christine: It was not so internal. And when I, I took the RISE program. I just was like, man, I didn't know this was going to be so hard for me. Not hard because the content's hard. Hard because you're in it. Like it's, it's, you know, how do you relate to these topics? It's a very personal experience and everybody, you know, one of the first exercises, which I'm sure you'll remember is like looking at yourself on the wheel of privilege.

Amanda: Mm hmm. 

Christine: And what does that mean in travel? And that is like, that is a mind blowing experience. And you start there. Like, that's not the end, that's the beginning. Yes. 

Amanda: It's almost confronting, but confronting in a really good and important way. 

Christine: Yes, in the best way. And I think, um, you know, for me, I, I, I didn't expect to learn so much.

Christine: I didn't expect to like, have to wrestle with things so much because I felt like at this point, you know, I'm, I'm an expert at these things. This should be fine. Right. Uh, and I, now I told Vincey, I just saw her. I'm like, I want to take it again because I think much like anything, like when you are doing anything like with this external, internal excavation, like you get this part.

Christine: And then the next time you like go a little deeper and a little deeper because it is so much about your own Experience and understanding. So anyway, we should probably talk about it forever. Um, I, I, I, I shout out Vinci on the podcast all the time and in any room where anybody will listen to me. So she already knows this, but, um, yeah, I, I think it's just, it's such an important program.

Christine: For the conversations that we're hoping to have. And because it's geared initially towards travelers, though, I know so many industry professionals have taken it. I think it's really important because it's a space where travelers can start to have This understanding that you and I were just talking about that, that isn't necessarily available to travelers and to make it available to students and allow them to start having those conversations again, I think is just really, really important.

Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really essential work, so I'm so glad to be part of it. 

Christine: Yeah. We're like, go Vinci. Okay. Um, well, I wanted to talk with you a little bit about podcasting in general, because as we said at the beginning, you know, we both really like landed in this medium and then loved it. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about that because I know people ask me all the time about podcasting, you know, using it as a tool for, you know, marketing, connecting with your audience, um, all these things that it's really unique for beyond just having great conversations.

Christine: Um, I'd love to talk to you about what you think value of podcasting is in general. 

Amanda: Oh, yes. Uh, absolutely. So, I think podcasting is super unique in the ability to connect with people. And I think, um, I mean, I've, and I've read and seen studies that part of it is because, well, one thing is, you know, you'll be in their ears for, you know, half an hour, 45 minutes, which is a lot of attention time compared to, you know, the average person.

Amanda: Even compared to a great magazine article, it might be 10 minutes if they're reading it. Or, um, yeah, video of course, you might be watching someone for longer on video. But a podcast, when you're listening to the audio only, that connecting thing is, you are with people in their everyday lives, you know. You are, they are listening to you while they're cooking dinner or while they're going for their jog.

Amanda: I mean, I've often said that I wished I could have as much exercise as my podcast has had. People will often write to me and say, Oh, I listened to you on my walk today. And I listened to you, you know, going for my run today. I'm like, Oh, I wish I'd had all of that. Would it be, I'd be super fit. Um, so you're like, you're with them in this, you know, you're in their head.

Amanda: And they really get to know you. And there's nothing quite like that. And I think that's one of the reasons that people feel so connected. Like when I meet listeners, they just seem to know a lot about me. And I always think, Oh, I don't talk, you know, it's, it's all about my guests. But, um, last year I was in Japan and I was on a hike in Tohoku in the Northern part of Honshu.

Amanda: So, uh, we're with the, my friend Catherine and we were staying in this tiny Uh, Ryokan in, in a little tiny town in the mountains. And there were six people, no, five people in the dining room that evening. There was myself and Catherine. There was another couple that we knew, oh, seven, two other couples who, or two couples that were doing the same hike as us, who we'd kind of seen along the way.

Amanda: And one woman sitting on her own and we felt sorry for her sitting on her own. So we had a chat. We like to have a chat. And, um, you know, we're just, you know, what are you doing here? And then she asked us about us and Catherine said, Oh yeah, my friend, Amanda is a podcaster. And the woman goes, I thought I recognized that voice.

Amanda: And she knew who I was. And then she's like, where's your son? And, um, almost accusingly, like I'd left my son accidentally somewhere. And I was like, Oh, it's okay. He's on a soccer trip in England. So it's okay. And that's why I'm here without him. Um, but she knew, you know, knew all this about me and you were, you know, wasn't surprised to find me where I was in this, You know, tiny place in Japan and, um, and had, you know, real, like an instant connection.

Amanda: Whereas to me, initially she was a complete stranger, but she felt she knew a lot about me and knew me and knew what, knew what we would talk about. And, and that was just like, you know, I've met listeners before, but that sort of really brought home to me, Oh, you know, they do feel really connected. And of course then I instantly felt connected to her too and we took beautiful photos and it was a really special evening.

Amanda: But I think that is one of the most important parts of podcasting is you can connect in a deeper and more, um, more meaningful way than in, I think in any other medium. Sorry, that was a really long answer to your question, but I'm really, really passionate about the power of podcasting. 

Christine: Yeah, it's so perfect, and I, I mean, I definitely agree with that, and I was just thinking about it as I'm like, you know, finishing out my programming for the rest of the year and thinking about where I'm headed, and I was looking at, you know, 200 episodes coming up, and I was like, gosh, if anyone's listened to every episode, which I, maybe, hopefully someone has, I'm 

Amanda: sure, but 

Christine: that's 200 hours they've spent with me.

Christine: 200 hours! That's crazy. I don't spend 200 hours with my best friend, right? 

Amanda: Exactly. It's a long time. 

Christine: And it's amazing. And, you know, you talk with brands about, you know, advertising or what's the, the value of being on the podcast. And these people have agreed to spend 200 hours with me. Like that's a really special relationship, even if it's seemingly one sided, but like you have experienced, and I have a few times as well.

Christine: It feels one sided because we're just behind our computer, you know, most of the time putting stuff out there and what we, unlike maybe some other types of media or whatever, you don't realize the consumer experience right away, or it feels really far removed from you. Like it is a really, Connective experience.

Christine: And so like it, it just creates relationships in such a different way. And I feel like it's a really important, and I don't know if you feel the same way, but I, I feel the weight of that importance, right? Like it's really sacred to me that someone wants to spend that much time hearing from people that I think are brilliant hearing from me.

Christine: Um, I, I, I want to honor that. It's really important. Like, this isn't. Never is it this one off about me experience, like this is super, super special and I think that's maybe also different from other, like, Video media, audio media, like it's so, uh, it's such a special, special space. 

Amanda: Absolutely. And, um, for many years, I've run a Facebook group that connects to my podcast.

Amanda: And in that group, I've had so many conversations and got to know So many of my listeners so well that exactly that now when I'm making an episode, I have them very, very, very, very strongly in my mind, center of center of my thinking, uh, often specific, you know, listeners who I know will have a, an interest in this topic or that topic.

Amanda: And, uh, and I really do feel that I'm making it for them and I feel a real. Um, obligation to make it good, uh, and to, you know, to be well researched and to, um, be on time, um, mostly with my podcast episodes and, uh, and yeah, and just to find the stuff that I know will, you you know, be useful and interesting for them, uh, because yeah, like you say, it's a, it is a real honor to be able to create, create that kind of, uh, that special listening space for them because they do spend, you're right, so much time listening to us.

Amanda: It's crazy. And I mean, you know, eight, eight years ago when I started and thankfully my early episodes, I've listened back occasionally and they're not too bad, but you know, I think they're a lot better, you know, as time goes on, but you know, the number of people who every day go back and listen from number one.

Amanda: you know, back eight years ago. And I think, wow, that's, you know, and then they'll listen all the way through. And that's, you know, crazy dedication. I mean, I mean, I do it for podcasts that I discover and like too. So I understand this behavior, but it still amazes me that people are willing to spend their time doing that.

Amanda: I'm very grateful for it as well, of course. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's something super special. And the other thing that I love so much about it is that it's so accessible and this is what allowed me to be able to do it right. The barrier to entry to creating a podcast is. There's, there's not, not really anything right.

Christine: Like you honestly don't need to know that much about podcasting to get started. You don't need to have a lot of technology. Most people can do it from the mini, do it from their cell phone. They can do it from their cell phone or laptop. And so then it allows so many people's voices to be heard in a way that I don't think any other platform ever has.

Christine: And because it's also not, um, There's not as much like algorithm associated with like how things are found. Like it's just such a unique space to be heard and to be able. To put yourself out there. And so whenever someone's like, Oh, I know I've always wanted to do that. I'm like, try it. Like, what's the worst that could happen?

Christine: You could do 10 episodes, love 10 episodes and that's it. But you did it. Or you might do 10 episodes, which is where I started and like, never stopped so far. And I, I, I just think that's. Especially because, you know, the, the purpose behind this is, is elevating voices and celebrating people's journeys and giving them that.

Christine: the spotlight and shining a light on what they're doing. In essence, like podcasting does that just as a medium. And so I think for me, that's why I also love it so much. Georgie 

Amanda: Tunny Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And, and you're right, like getting to, like the guests I get to speak to, sometimes I just can't believe that I'm able to have these conversations and not, not because they're, I mean, sometimes because they're famous and amazing and I've admired them for a long time, but often just because they're like, They have such cool stories and I just, uh, you know, I'll just, I sit there smiling, even when I'm editing, I sit there smiling because I'm like, Oh, this is such a cool conversation.

Amanda: You know, I just, it's such a thrill to be able to have those conversations and for people to trust us with their stories and, and a lot of their like really deep thoughts. And, you know, I just, I dunno, I just think it's such a, I feel so lucky and privileged to be able to do it. 

Christine: Yeah, I love that so much.

Christine: This is where we have the, the like sisters, sisterhood stories here. Cause I, I'll finish podcasting a lot, an episode and I'm like, Oh, my face hurts because I know I was just like, for the whole conversation. And then when I listened back, even in my car, I'm like doing the same thing. And somebody said, like, you listen to your own podcast.

Christine: Well, yes. Yes. Same. When you're in it, you're not like listening, right? So it's fun to go back and listen, but I'm like, I really love the conversations. Like I really love my guests. I really love the space. So yeah, I listen. 

Amanda: Yeah. Same. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I feel, you know, I, when I, cause I have this weird format where I have excerpts from three guests in one, in one conversation.

Amanda: in one episode. And so I know there's a lot that's been left on the cutting room floor, but I get to listen to all of it. And so I always feel a little bit, a little bit mean, because I'm, I can't put everything into every episode or it come, might come later, but I know I've got these little, you know, gems of stories waiting.

Amanda: And, uh, and I just, I smile when I sit here editing because it's just, I dunno, I just, I can't stop. It's so fun. And I, it's funny cause I. I have a high need for novelty, uh, and yet, eight years on, it still feels novel because there's, there are an endless number of people out there with amazing experiences to reflect on and talk to me about, so it still feels exciting every time I record.

Christine: Yeah. I agree. Like, sometimes it'd be like, Oh, I'm so tired today. Or like, I've got a million things and I've got this podcast episode I'm recording. And then you get done and you're like, Oh, that was so good. Like every time. No, there's never been an exception where I was like, Oh, I can't believe I did that.

Christine: No. Same, 

Amanda: same. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Or even if it's someone I'm thinking, Oh, I don't know. I'm not quite sure about this. And then we'll get on and we'll have this, yeah. Incredible conversation. I feel so grateful. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, for our listeners, I don't know that we've. Exactly mentioned the name, but your podcast is Thoughtful Travel Podcast.

Christine: Um, I think we've alluded to it, if not said it fully. Um, so I want to make sure we, we share that. Um, but I wanted to ask you, I know that like, I can never answer this question, but I'm going to make you answer this question. Is there a particular, um, episode or maybe two episodes that if people are just hearing about your podcast that they should definitely check out?

Amanda: Oh, that's a really tough question. Um, I think I needed preparation time for this one. Um, 

Christine: Or maybe a recent one that you really love and are proud of. 

Amanda: So when, when you asked me about favorite episodes or good episodes, a couple spring to mind, uh, I actually have had, I don't often do deep dive interviews, but I interviewed Rain or Win, who wrote the Salt Path and other, other books, um, out of England and.

Amanda: She's just one of my personal heroes, and when I got to interview her, not only was she as amazing as I expected, she was even more amazing. So that's one of those conversations that I will forever be grateful that I could have had. So, um, my interview with Raina Wynne would be one. Um, and if I'm thinking about recent ones, I think Uh, probably, oh it's hard to say, but my newest episode was about friends you make when you're traveling and I won't spoil it but there's a, the first chat I had was with this guy who just decided he really liked this place, beautiful tiny place in Switzerland and he would find a way to make friends there no matter what and he was very unique about how he did that.

Amanda: So, you know, a lot of friendships. Like friends I make when traveling I think are super important and very impactful, um, but usually it just sort of evolves organically. But he was like determined to do this and I was just blown away by this story that's become like a many years long friendship, really, you know, deep friendship.

Amanda: So I think that that's a good one as well. But um, yeah, it's so hard. It's like picking your favorite child, so. I love all my episodes equally. 

Christine: Yeah, it is. I was just writing some blogs and like, you know, going through and pulling some themes and then like, okay, who do I want to feature? And then I go back and look at the list and I'm like, oh gosh, I loved that episode.

Christine: Oh, that one's not relevant for this, but remember how good that one was? And you're like, wow, I'm such a geek about my own podcast. Same, 

Amanda: same. I'm glad it's not just me. 

Christine: I think it's good. I mean, the same thing is the, the depth of connection it creates for the listeners. I think it creates it for us with our guests.

Christine: Like, um, I think so many times when I look at the, the women that I've spoken to and I'm, I just think, gosh, I cannot believe you. All of them let me share that space with them and allowed me to hear their story and share their story and that we spent all that time getting to know one another and in a way that you never would at an industry event where you've got, you know, eight and a half minutes to connect with them.

Christine: And so it, it also forges a lot of. connection with the guests. And I think that's another thing that's really maybe unexpected. Maybe you don't think about what that, how that's going to happen. And, um, it does really create something that I think we wear on our hearts too. And maybe not in a way that other people might not have that same level of like ownership and connection to like an article they wrote about someplace.

Christine: Maybe. But like, it just feels very intimate and, um, it's the best medium for me because it's my deep, authentic conversation is my very favorite thing in the world. So it's great that this exists for that. Um, well, before we end our conversation, uh, I have a few rapid fire questions, so we'll go there to wrap up.

Amanda: Good. 

Christine: Um, the first is what are you reading right now? 

Amanda: Oh, I am. You 

Christine: have all of your books behind you. I mean, I've 

Amanda: got a pile, like a very high pile of, um, of re reading books, but, uh, right now one of the books I'm reading is The Longfield by Pamela Petro. She was a guest on my podcast and she happened to write about Wales and then I was just about to go to Wales.

Amanda: So I am reading this book about her experience in Wales, which has now became, I'm really absolutely obsessed with Wales now. Thanks to this fabulous book. 

Christine: Excellent. Thank you. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel? 

Amanda: Um, not much. I'm a fairly light packer and there will always be a book actually.

Amanda: And, uh, not much else except actually always a couple of muesli bars in case I end up somewhere weird and there's no access to food. Cause that's the kind of thing that happens to me a lot. 

Christine: Yeah, uh, my dear friend who also helps produce my podcast does produce my podcast. She shows up for every trip with like a bag this big.

Christine: Even when we went to Alaska, I'm like, wow, how do you have all of your stuff in there? I do not understand. And then she also happens to always have whatever I forgot in my giant bag that should have everything. So. Wow. Wow. 

Amanda: I'm not quite that extreme. I'm not good at, not that good at being a small light packer, but I do, I hate having to carry a heavy bag.

Amanda: So, um, yeah, so I'm a fairly light packer and I'll just wear the same clothes over and over again. I don't really care. Yeah. 

Christine: Especially with kids now, I try to carry less because then I know I have to carry their stuff as well. And so that's also annoying. I must say, 

Amanda: like my last trip now, my, my son is 14 and now he's, um, you're fully capable of dealing with his own stuff.

Amanda: And that was a bonus to not have to worry about his stuff anymore. So. 

Christine: Yeah. Um, to sojourn to me means to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while, uh, whereas somewhere that you would still love to sojourn. 

Amanda: Oh, um. everywhere. And it's a little bit cheating because I have lived in Japan before, but last year when I was in Northern Japan in Sendai, I felt like, oh, this is a city I want to spend more time in.

Amanda: And that would be my next pick for a, like an extended stay. 

Christine: Yeah. Uh, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been? 

Amanda: Okonomiyaki, uh, the, you know, Japanese cabbage pancake kind of, uh, concoction, uh, which connects me immediately to Osaka and my friend Yuko who took me to a tiny little, like, hole in the wall restaurant for the first time to eat okonomiyaki because that's where her grandmother used to take her to eat it and it's a very, yeah, that taste just takes me back there every time.

Christine: I love that story. Um, who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and travel the world? 

Amanda: Uh, both my parents, um, definitely because for their, for their era and from growing up in Western Australia, in country Western Australia, they had, Both struck out in various ways. My, um, and, and traveled.

Amanda: My mum, uh, traveled to the east coast when she was, um, in her late teens to kind of like a working holiday, which back in those days was very unusual. And my dad had spent time working in Papua New Guinea and always told me stories about PNG when I was little. So both of them, absolutely a lot. 

Christine: Um, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?

Amanda: I know this is a very cheesy answer, but I really love traveling with my son because he has the best outlook on life and teaches me so much with how he sees the world. Because I think, like, his generation are going to save the world and he will pull me up if I am politically incorrect in any way or I'm showing my privilege.

Amanda: He is my very favorite person to travel with, even though now he's a teenager and sometimes grunts a bit. But honestly, to see the world through the eyes of that age group, I think is like, that's my favorite, favorite way to travel. 

Christine: Mm. I love that so much. My oldest daughter is 14 and she is also one of my favorite people to travel with.

Christine: So I can relate. 

Amanda: Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, the last question. For, uh, recognizing women in the industry that we admire. Is there someone who you'd like to celebrate in this space today? 

Amanda: Uh, well, we have already celebrated, um, Dr. Vincy Ho, but I would like to re celebrate her, because she absolutely inspires me. And, um, also Joanna Haugen, who does amazing work in, um, in educating everyone in, in industry and travellers alike in how to travel better.

Amanda: Uh, and, um, she just popped up on my Instagram this morning with her beautiful cat and I was like, oh, Joanna, you're a good person. So those are my two, probably, yeah, two of my, two of the most influential women to me in, um, in when I learn more about being a better traveller. 

Christine: Yeah. Agreed. Fully agreed. So thank you for mentioning them both.

Christine: Um, and thank you so much for joining me, for being here so early in the morning. And I'm so glad that we finally were able to meet and have a conversation and, and share it with my listeners as well. 

Amanda: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such, I knew it would be for me a really enjoyable, fascinating conversation and it has been.

Amanda: So thank you so much.

Christine: Thank you for listening to soul of travel podcast presented by journey woman. I'd also like to extend thanks again to this week's partner, Safety Wing. I hope you'll choose their Nomad insurance the next time you plan international travel. Be sure to head to the link in the show notes for more information.

Christine: If you loved this conversation, I encourage you to subscribe and rate the podcast. Please share episodes that inspire you with others because this is how we extend the impact of this show. Learn more about each of my guests by reading our episode blog. which are more than your average show notes. I think you'll love the connection.

Christine: Find our episode blogs at www. souloftravelpodcast. com. I am so proud of the way these conversations are bringing together people from around the world. If this sounds like your community, welcome. I am so happy you are here. I am all about community and would love to connect. You can find me on Facebook at www.

Christine: souloftravelpodcast. com. or follow me on Instagram either at she. sojourns or at soul of travel podcast. Stay up to date by joining the soul of travel podcast mailing list. You'll also want to explore the journeying woman community and its resources for women travelers over 50. I'd also like to share a quick thank you to my podcast producer and content magician Carly Eduardo, CEO of Convergente.

Christine: I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hear your story.