Rethinking an Ecosystem of Collaboration in Tourism with Zina Bencheikh

In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with guest Zina Bencheikh, Managing Director EMEA at Intrepid Travel.

Regarded as a leading advocate for gender equality, Zina is on a mission to make the world a more inclusive and just place through travel. Based in Morocco, Zina has overseen record business growth in key markets across Europe, the Middle East, and Africa and has driven opportunities through tourism for women across the world. She is a seasoned speaker and contributor to leading international publications, chair of the Association of Touring and Adventure Suppliers, and a patron and advisor to not-for-profits Education for All and Women in Travel. Zina spends her spare time with her young family and is known for her eye for style and impeccable taste.

Christine and Zina discuss:

· How to make travel more meaningful for guests and host communities

· Having a purpose-aligned business

· The intersection of climate action and gender equity

· How empowering women can reduce the impacts of the climate crisis

· Intrepid’s upcoming expedition to Saudi Arabia

Join Christine for this soulful conversation with Zina Bencheikh!

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To read our episode blog post, access a complete transcript, see full show notes, and find resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to the Soul of Travel Website. 

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Get to know Intrepid Travel and connect with Zina on LinkedIn.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.

Transcript

Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm your host, Christine, and this is our first episode of season six. So I'm so happy to be back and bringing you another season of the podcast today. My guest is returning, um, for a second conversation you heard from her back in season four in episode 126. So if you want to hear more, um, We already have one conversation, but we're going to go a little different direction this time.

Christine: And I'm so grateful to be welcoming Zena Benchik back to the podcast. So thank you so much for being here.

Zina: Thank you, Christine, for having me. It's a real pleasure.

Christine: Thank you. Uh, you're definitely one of the women that I follow really closely on LinkedIn and other platforms because everything that you're a part of feels very aligned with what I'm passionate about in the industry. And I learned so much through what you share and then also just by seeing where you're at and then the conversations that are happening there.

Christine: And I kind of follow the thread. So I really appreciate, um, kind of 

Zina: reciprocal, vice versa.

Christine: Thank you. It's like a virtual mentorship, I guess. Um, well, to begin the conversation for those that haven't listened or heard from you before, I just like to turn it over to you and have you introduce yourself so our listeners can get to know a little bit more about who you are and what you do.

Zina: Sure. So, um, obviously I'm Xena. I, um, I work for a company called Intrepid Travel, which is, uh, we believe the largest, one of the largest small group adventure provider. And, um, I've been with them for 15 years today. I'm the managing director for Europe, Middle East and Africa. So it's a very large region that starts in Iceland. Finish in South Africa and then on the other side from Morocco to Turkey. So a lot of countries that I'm responsible for from a kind of inbound, um, operational perspective, but also, um, the UK market and UK and Europe markets, um, at bounce sales as well fall under my remit. So it's, um, it's a great job.

Zina: It's a great region. It's very diverse. It's, it's great. Fast growing as well. It's the fastest growing for the group. And, um, for 15 years, I've been, um, I've been with this business, um, in this region. I've just been fueled by the growth that we, we we've been, um, delivering. And that's the reason for, for the job I'm doing today.

Christine: Yeah, thank you. And I was just, as you were saying, all of the different areas, like I realized that was your region, but I actually hadn't thought about how diverse it is and how expansive it is and, um, how many different types of experiences are, are within that one umbrella. So I imagine that it is really interesting, but also maybe challenging because there's so many types of things happening in all the different areas.

Zina: All the time, all the time. It's, uh, it fits really well. My personality, um, I think, um, yeah, I like that diversity and, uh, the different challenges that we've got to tackle, but again, yeah, operating a trip in Morocco, very different from operating trip in East Africa and very, even more different than going to Eastern Europe or Iceland.

Zina: So it's, um, there was around. 11 offices soon to be 12. And we are adding every year one or two, um, in this region because it's a region that still fairly unpacked, um, for for intrepid. And you know, we've started as a Southeast Asia operator. We've been in business for 35 years. Um, and so M. A. I. S. Is the region that is, um, it's got a lot of untapped opportunities and a lot of interesting stuff to continue to develop for for the group.

Zina: So it's, um, Yeah, it's quite, uh, it's quite busy all the time

Zina: as a result. 

Christine: Yeah, I imagine. Um, well, the last time we talked, I didn't get to hear much about you, your background. So I would love to talk a little bit about that today. I think it's such a great way to see a little bit about where guests are in their careers now. It's really helpful to see what it is. Looks like the journey of how they got there.

Christine: So for you, um, did you travel much when you were younger? Or how did you find yourself in, in the tourism industry? Was it a path you set out on? Or did you just kind of happen to, to land here?

Zina: Well, I think it's a bit both because on, on one side, I've, I've, been on my first plane, I think less than one year old. And at that time, I mean, I'm 40 now, uh, as a Moroccan, uh, women and, um, my parents were very well traveled. They studied and lived overseas in different countries across Europe. And at some stage, um, they decided to go back to Morocco and they had me as a third, um, Children and they then they had an opportunity to move to Canada.

Zina: And so when I was less than one, we moved to Canada as a family, and I lived there my first five years. And then from there I spent, um, a few years in Morocco until I got 17. And then from there I moved to Europe where I studied, uh, and worked both in France and in the UK. I decided to return home, uh, when I got married.

Zina: It was, uh, um, in 2010, so 15 years ago. And that was after starting a career in the finance industry. So I was living in Paris. I was working as a finance auditor. Um, it was doing quite well, but I was not, um, kind of fulfilled with the job that I had. Um, and I never really got interested in the tourism industry or anything like that.

Zina: I, as I said, I was quite well traveled from where where I traveled as a holiday as well, but I never really thought of travel as an industry to work for until I decided to return home in Marrakesh, where the main industry is travel. And, um, the only job I could find really was a finance manager job for this new startup called Intrepid.

Zina: And I joined Intrepid, not knowing what to expect, but very open, um, to something new. And I was, as I said, really bored with the world of finance and corporate finance in particular. So when I joined Intrepid in 2010, I was a finance manager. It was a startup. It was a very, very interesting culture. People were like walking barefoot. Uh, there was some Australians, Americans, British, of course, Moroccan in this office. And it was, it looked really interesting from a cultural perspective. And very, very shortly after I joined, I realized I found my place. It was, um, a country, a company that, um, in fact was doing something in my own country that I had no idea about. no clue off, um, a sort of travel that was, um, empowering the communities supporting, um, elevating the cultures, um, highlighting what was the most beautiful about my own country. And I didn't even know it was possible. And so from there, um, the company has been growing so significantly and especially this part of the world where I was based on in Morocco and, um, and I got to take advantage of that.

Zina: So. From being a finance manager for this Moroccan startup that was overlooking Morocco and the new venture in Europe, I then got involved in setting up an office in Egypt and then an office in Turkey. And then I became a regional finance manager. And then I became, uh, involved with our office in, in Iceland.

Zina: And then I became a general manager for Europe and Morocco. And then, uh, I started to, um, to develop more of this part of Europe with an office in Spain and office in Croatia. So developing, as we were developing different products and offers in this region, uh, we started to employ more people and then we, we started to set up more offices and that was just.

Zina: very much involved into this, this development. And then at some stage I became a managing director for the region. I moved to the UK in 2019 in London, and then we, um, we changed the way we look at the business in a way that even all the markets that we were overlooking in EMEA, mainly the UK, it was 80 percent of ourselves from a kind of customer perspective and also part of Europe.

Zina: So Germany and the dark region became under my roommate as well. And we consolidated all of that during the pandemic. And now I'm based back in Morocco. I'm in Casablanca, but I'm mainly working from home and managing a team of 11 general managers and some other regional leads who support me in the in this growth.

Zina: Um, this quote, uh, uh, you know, initiatives and, um, and development of this region. That's Still has a lot to offer.

Christine: Yeah. It's so amazing that you got to be such a part of that growth of Intrepid. I remember hearing about them really early in my career and I was focusing on, um, I was just finished my master's in sustainable destination management. So I was really curious about what kind of companies were actually doing that or had, um, more of a values driven approach to travel.

Christine: Like that's where I knew I have a background in sociology. And so I was In the process of trying to like find the intersection between like social injustice and travel. And I remembered hearing about this little company called Intrepid and like, I was like, wow, that sounds like such a cool company. And in my mind, like what you were just describing, that's what I thought the company felt like, you know, from the outside.

Christine: But I feel like even though they've grown a lot, That they're a brand that really, I feel like, from an outside perspective, has retained some of that, um, Some of that culture and some of that intimacy and, and, and, and somehow, like, grown without losing track of where they started. And I feel like that's really hard to do.

Zina: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's down to the fact that we're still owned by the same people, two Australian backpackers who created Intrepid back in 35 years ago with the, the same idea that we still have today, that travel should be done in a way that it's, um, an exchange and it's empowering both the travelers and the, the host.

Zina: And it's, um, um, and it's, you know, it's just fundamental to who we are and, um. We often say that as a full purpose business, purpose is the output of what we do. It's not the reason for us to exist. And it's something that's, that's really well embedded across the business. And look, we are, um, we're fast growing.

Zina: We make mistakes as well. And, um, but we also, we learn from, from them and we, and we know. How to move on and continue to stay true to our values, and I think it's a lot driven by who owns Intrepid and who has been behind, um, you know, this, uh, growth success story that's still with us today.

Christine: Yeah. Um, well, I, I talk about a lot on the podcast about how about how to make travel more meaningful. Um, I think for me now, really looking at the connection between meaningful travel and sustainability is something that I'm really seeing. unraveling, I think, because if we're having more meaningful travel experiences, I think we can travel less because we're not like seeking a certain experience and then not finding it because we didn't have a trip that really felt good to us.

Christine: So I've, I've really just been thinking about can actually having a more meaningful trip help us in achieving our sustainability goals and For you, what do you think makes travel more meaningful, um, from both a traveler perspective and from a destination perspective?

Zina: I think I'm gonna sound like I'm repeating myself, but what I just said before, it needs to be an exchange. Um, it cannot be just beneficial from one part over the other, and in particular for the traveler over the host and the destination. I've been in Italy in the summer, and I went on an intrepid trip with my family, which we have this range of family adventures. It was so fulfilling. It was so, um, immersive, interesting. In the same time, joyful. We had a lot of fun. Um, I came back from this trip. And I think I'm not ready for another adventure for another period of time. I'm not ready for another trip. Or I was talking with my children about what we're going to do for Christmas. We're probably just going to stay home, um, to your point. So I think I really relate to what you just said. Um, when travel is done in a way that it really can be transformative. Uh, educating can really, um, um, you know, make you feel like you had, um, You know, a real a real time for yourself for discovering yourself for connecting with others. Um, it really is transformative in a way. And I know this word has been used a lot in a different ways, but I truly believe that in the Style of holidays that we, we, we operate and we offer to customers. It is the effect that it has. Um, and in a way, absolutely no need to, and look in a way, our customers travel with us in average every 700 days.

Zina: There's a reason for that as well. So it's in average every, every two years that, um, someone will, will go on a, on a, on a trip or an adventure that's meaningful, that's immersive and that's authentic as we, we offer. So, yeah. And it's. Again, to answer your question, I think also travel has the power to open people's minds and create, um, some, some level of tolerance in this world where there's so much bad things happening. Um, it can be the problem to so many, uh, the, sorry, the solution to so many problems in that way. Um, and I'm the biggest believer to what you just said before, that's a meaningful, way of travel, um, is, is almost the only solution. If we think about overturism and what's going on lately, I mean, it's been years that we're hearing about overturism before the pandemic, although the pandemic gave us a break. But, um, if everyone was traveling in a way that we are traveling, or we take our customers to travel in an authentic way, in a smaller way, in a way that supporting local businesses, that's not invasive, that's, um, Immersive. That's respectful. There wouldn't be any problematic around, uh, over tourism. And I think that's also something that, uh, you know, made me reflect.

Zina: I was, I was traveling in Southern Europe in one of the most crowded country and most visited country being Italy. I just didn't feel that I was adding to the problem because of the way we were traveling. And it was, um, quite a open mind for me.

Christine: Yeah, I, I think the conversation around over tourism right now, like you said, is, It's particularly interesting because it's not new, but it's kind of new again, I guess. We're, we're really feeling it and seeing it. And I also went to Europe for the first time, spending much time there last summer. And for me, it was really like a, a living textbook of what I've been talking about.

Christine: Cause I had never really experienced. I've never really experienced the effects of over tourism personally, because when I travel, pardon me, really love to not be where other travelers are, like, that's what actually feels nourishing to me. I, I have always been someone who Gets off the beaten path, if you want to say, but it just has been how I have been.

Christine: And like, I always talk about what a problem that is. And like I said, having a background in sustainable destination management, I understand it from that perspective, but I had never experienced it. So I feel like it was important for me to be able to talk about it, to have experienced it, but having experienced it, I really understand.

Christine: guess the, the, the true problem of it, because it's, it is really, I think there's so many parts and pieces to it, but I feel like the destination and travelers are not having a good experience. We're depleting resources. There's so many things that are happening and yet we also know how powerful travel is.

Christine: And we know that it is necessary as when we saw during the pandemic, when people weren't traveling so many. Places were impacted. So it's, you know, the number one economic resource in so many places. I know you know this from where you live. So how do we begin to untangle? And you mentioned, you know, there are some strategies with off season and, and, you know, getting to second tier cities.

Christine: But when we look at this as a As a true, I think a true shift that needs to be happening within the industry, what do you think we're really going to do to, I guess, maybe retrain travelers, educate destinations, bring tour operators into the conversation? Like all of us, I think, need to be a part of understanding how we're going to get out of this cycle.

Zina: Absolutely. We are in an ecosystem and we are not the only players in it. The travelers is a player, the tour operator, the other part of the travel industry. And obviously there's a main stakeholder that is also the government and destination management, uh, organizations or tourism board, as we call them in some places. It's about how do they, um, also Start to look at their destination and the success of their destination, looking at value. Keep your eyes and not more volume. Keep your eyes. It's not about how many, but it's about how good and, um, and I don't know if they all understand it. If they're all aware, if they're all, um, doing it, some are and as a global to operator, we can see, you know, we have the experiences we see also shifts from some destinations that are really understanding, not just the yeah. Um, importance from, um, kind of sustainability perspective, but also from a customer, uh, uh, choice perspective that is changing towards more, um, you know, choosing more sustainable travel options, traveling in lesser known places or traveling in different parts of the country or different period of the year. So we see some of them are, are going into it, but others are very far behind. When I went to Italy, I remember talking to a local in Venice, which is not very common. It's the first time I ever seen a local in Venice, to be honest with you, because I've been there many times for work for for different reason.

Zina: And I remember as I arrived, I took one of the water taxi, which is the kind of public transport that everyone used there. I was with my two kids, and then we got into We get out into, uh, the, the place where our hotels was. And he's, this man was helping me because I was asking question about the location to, of my hotel.

Zina: And he, he just stepped in and he helped me and he said, you know what? It's five minutes walk. I'll take you there. And so I had five minutes to talk with a local for the first time. And the first thing I had in mind to ask him is, what does he think about tourism? And they fact, and he was telling me that, um. It was terrible. It was affecting the children, um, education because they cannot afford, cannot afford to stay, um, in, in living in the city, um, to, to be educated there and access to universities, et cetera, because it was just too expensive. It was affecting the elderly because they can't walk anymore. It's too crowded.

Zina: It's too dangerous. It was affecting their livelihoods in general because everything was more expensive. Obviously, the ecological ecosystem because it was, um, affected from, you know, as you know, the, the crowds and, you know, it's also affecting the environment. Um, but when I said to him, so do you want tourism to stop?

Zina: And he's like, no, because all my family depends on tourism. So his family works, you know, they run shops and they run different restaurants or whatever. So, um, That are dependent. So what they want is a certain form of tourism and but not the one that has been promoted by the government and less done by the government.

Zina: And he's he's and he's point was that it was a load. It was a load, but he his own government who had different interest, different understanding as well. And perhaps a myth, a big misunderstanding of what could be the most valuable type of travel for them. So what we're trying to do on our side and look intrepid has been growing from being a niche unknown kind of operator to a much more global and much more. In a way, I mean, we don't like it like to say famous, but a bit more renowned in the global scale that is a good thing and is a good sign. And hopefully others will follow and others are following anyway, because it's it shows that there is a style of travel that is possible and that is can be positive. That's possible. But that's also that's attracting customers and that more and more destinations want to be working with. So we're working with tourism board in some places. The main reason for them, for example, in Morocco, it's the best example. One of our biggest partnership of the last couple of years is with the tourism board of Morocco, who literally wants us to partner with them, not to bring volumes of customers because they get that from the, the chewies and the easy jets of this word, but what they get from us are people who come and stay in the country, who go.

Zina: North, south, right and left to places that are under visited, and so they don't necessarily give us targets in terms of numbers, but they give us more, um, you know, more support for us to market the destination, um, with, uh, you know, um, Content that showcase the host, the people, the experiences, the food, the culture, the music, and all of this that makes Morocco an attractive place.

Christine: As you were talking about working with, you know, with countries to understand. Who we're bringing in again. This is a conversation. I feel like I've heard heard happening for 20 years, but Happening now differently because I think before you would say it And I was like, yeah, but this is how we, this is how we bring travelers.

Christine: It's always, you know, beds and heads, like it's the number of people. That's how you quantify the value of tourism. And when I was in Slovenia a couple of years ago, um, I heard, you know, it was there, Um, for, uh, an event and we had some of the tourism and the office, um, people from the regional offices in talking about their strategies for growth because it's a, I'm sure you know, a really popular, increasingly popular destination and we were, you know, talking about how are you going to keep Slovenia from, you know, some of the stuff that it's the growth that's happened in surrounding countries.

Christine: Like it's almost kind of nice that you're peeking now because you've seen what rapid growth looks like. And, you know, they said one thing is, is there's only so many hotel rooms in Ljubljana. So only so many people can come in because there's no place for them to go. And you really, when you come to have to stay there first.

Christine: So it is. A real simple way for them to control how many people can come to the destination. And I just was thinking, you know, I don't know if that was intentional at first or something that they realized was actually keeping their growth slow and steady. Um, I think they have maybe built one larger hotel in the last few years, but still there's not that much capacity that can come in.

Christine: And so I, I just was really curious about the conversations they were having About not growing too quickly and then looking at that and other destinations. I've also been a part of I traveled to the same place over and over and over in Belize again, like 20 years ago. So it was from this little tiny community that now.

Christine: Unfortunately has grown well past its capacity. But at that time, I was having conversations with locals about not them not wanting to bring cruise to to build a cruise port near where their villages because they were already having issues with garbage and water and access to health care, even for their own community.

Christine: And they just said they couldn't sustain it. And they kept asking questions about how do we make the world convince our government that while there's a lot of economic benefit, there's not a lot of social benefits. And so I felt really lucky that I was a part of some of those conversations, but I think it is, it is really interesting to try to convey what you were saying, the type of traveler that you have, and then also It's so easy to send people to the same places over and over and over again, because you've like, you've developed the product and, and disseminating people to other parts of the country.

Christine: Um, it kind of thinking of tour, the tourism cares, um, the travel map in Jordan where they have, you know, The main places everybody goes, but then it's really easy for you to see places nearby that you can, like, kind of spread the impact, and those are things I try to do when I have created my trips, but how do you start to, I guess, have the conversation about that value, because it is a very different way of thinking about travel than we have been talking and, and creating experiences for the past 20 years.

Zina: I don't know if I have, um, got your question right, Christine, but is it about, um, so if you, um, I think we have a challenge because in a way as a business, we, we. We do contribute. We can be seen as we contribute to the problem since we are traveling to places like Venice and we're going to Rome and we go to Barcelona, et cetera.

Zina: But to go back to what I was telling earlier in my trip in Italy. I think that it's about, it's not too much about where we go, but it's about how we go to these places and point about Slovenia, how they built the, their destinations to almost make it unavoidable that there is only one way to go. So for me, and whether, you know, a destination allowed the large cruises or not, will make a difference.

Zina: Uh, whether they're allowed the big, large, uh, you know, Hotel investments or not, it will make a difference whether they're, um, supporting initiatives to, um, you know, get, uh, you know, the youth and I mean, not just the youth, but they're the population, um, to be involved in the tourism industry as entrepreneurs and different initiatives so they can actually, uh, offer different, uh, part of the, uh, the product, um, to the, you know, to the, their own people will actually also be, um, um, part of the solution.

Zina: So. From our perspective, the way we travel and not too much where we go is about using traveling like a local would do. So losing the public transport, using the public transport, eating what local eats, um, hiring local people to take us around the destination. So we can educate our customers to what is responsible traveler, what, what, what, what is responsible travel is about.

Zina: So in the context of this culture, this country, where we are. Things like how to dress responsibly when you travel in a certain place or another, um, highlights, um, or, or peak, uh, locally owned places, um, community run, uh, initiative, minority, uh, run and owned, uh, places that will form part of our trip, whether it's a cooking experience or cooking class experience or a hotel that we stay that is.

Zina: owned by, uh, women or, or restaurants where we eat that is run by a charity. So all of these elements make the core of the Intrepid products. And of course you will add to this elements around seasonality for many, many years. We've always extended our season, especially to the most crowded places like in Europe. So we don't operate only in July, August and September, where everyone travel. We've always had a shoulder season where we travel with less trip fill in March, April or in October, November. And yes, we make a bit less money, but they actually it is the right way to operate these places. We have been extending this season since 2000 and 23.

Zina: We've been operating trips in Spain. In December, January and February, and the feedback scores are higher than during the high season because it's actually more enjoyable to travel at the time, and we're trying to highlight that as well in our communication because we strongly believe it's not about where, but it's about how, and I think that's the main difference if it was done at a large scale, and if it was the entire industry that was operating this way, I don't think we would have a problem, and travel would be only what it's meant to be for, like a week, and we would have a problem.

Zina: You're welcome. Bye. Of course, a way to enjoy yourself and it's meant to be that first, but also a way to spread tourism dollar in a way that is empowering destination, you know, from all around the world that often are highly dependent, as you said, as the main economic income or economic activity.

Christine: Yeah. I love the distinction of between not where, but how, because again, I've been saying it's not where, but why. And I think if we can really, really bring both travelers and destinations and, and businesses into that conversation, I think we can really shift because we, we have had such a connection to the where and really when it comes down to it for, I think what most people want out of a travel experience.

Christine: It's not, it isn't the key player. Like it really just isn't, it, you, it feels like it should be, but I think so many people are learning that it, it doesn't have to be. And so then that does allow us to really shift where we're operating, when we're operating, how we're operating. And I think that that really will be important within the industry.

Christine: Um, One of the things I definitely want to talk to you about is, um, gender equity and women in the industry and how women supporting women, both as industry professionals, but also looking at how the industry itself supports women. women around the world. I know that you just did an interview with Juliet Kinsman and Simon London on their podcast talking about how empowering women helps to support reducing the impacts of climate crisis.

Christine: I just wanted to ask if you could talk a little bit about how those are connected and, and how, how really empowering women does contribute to lessening that impact.

Zina: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, uh, it's the lesser known, uh, potentially the most impactful way to combat climate crisis, at least if it was done years ago and understood years ago. But the main reason for, for climate, um, the climate crisis we're living at the moment is Um, the growing population and the pressure that it's creating to our earth, right?

Zina: It is the main reason. It is the first factor, the first reason. Um, one of the best way to reduce the growing population is actually to educate girls. Girls often tend to marry later and have less kids. And, um, and the growing population has been fueled in countries like India, in, um, I mean in Morocco, where birth rate is much higher than a lot of the European countries, um, in Western countries.

Zina: And in a way, um, what we found out, um, being, Something that might look like an indirect way, but it's, it is very important for us as a business to support, uh, organizations that are educating girls in particular, because we know, and we've seen it firsthand with one, for example, in Morocco, that is called education for all. Um, when those girls that come from rural areas that have no, no access to, to education for whatever reason can be cultural, it can be just the distance from home to, to the school because there's not enough school in their case, what would happen as a result of being educated. is that they will marry later.

Zina: They will have less kids or no kids or whatever. And we've seen them firsthand, some of them working in our own offices, how empowered they are, and also the level of education that they have developed also have given them awareness on issues around climate change as well. We could argue that this is Vote for girls and boys.

Zina: It is not just for girls. But the reality is that the main factor for climate change is the growing population, and that's a very efficient way to tackle it. And this is why this is something that we've been looking into doing significantly when talking about more widely women empowerment and empowering women in in the travel industry.

Zina: For example, women are more than half Of the the travel industry in in in term of numbers. So it's 54 percent according to the UNWTO. So it's more than half. It's to compare with 39 percent for wider industry. So we we are not only one of the largest employer in the world. As a travel industries, the third largest, but it's also one that attract a lot of women.

Zina: The reason why it attracts a lot of women. It's also because it's easier to work in travel than you know, the industry because of the lower expectation from an educational kind of study background. So it's a bit sad, but it's the reality. So lots of low income jobs in travel are fulfilled by women, you know, like, uh, as you can imagine, um, Empowering women, um, and we know when we put money in women's hands, the large majority of this money stay in the family and in the community. whether it's for their boys or their girls or the family in general. It, we know statistically that it's a large majority versus men. We know that there is much less money that men earn that stays and is reinvested in their kids education. And in, uh, you know, unfortunately a lot of it could go to, um, their own activities that could include, you know, um, things like, uh, gambling and alcohol, and those are again, UN statistics.

Zina: And that's also a reason why it's so important to, we can almost, I believe that using travel by itself can actually fix the problem of gender equality in the world because of the size and because of the large scale and impact it has in terms of employment and the potential it can have if we would make it more accessible.

Zina: easier for women to, um, grow, um, in the industry, grow the income, uh, access higher level positions, leadership positions, et cetera. And then on the flip side, I need to add, I know we're getting a little bit out of topic, but 80 percent of the travel purchase is done by women. And so businesses who realize that and reflect this sort of percentage into their, um, you know, supply chain, leadership position, teams, et cetera, have a most likely going to be successful. because of who is their customer. And this is, um, not necessarily the traveler, but it's the purchase. It means they hold the wallet, whether it's for them and their family or for them alone.

Christine: Yeah. Um, Oh, I feel like I wish that I could take each one of those things and, and spend another hour just talking 

Zina: It's a lot, I know. 

Christine: the buckets that you said. But I do think it's so important. And I know, again, kind of going back to my background in sociology and social impact and equity, like those were the things I was most curious about.

Christine: So I kept asking how travel, you know, intersects with that. And I just, you know, For myself, kept thinking there's no like travel touches everything. And like you were saying, like the, it really is a tool for change, especially if we're being conscious that we're kind of holding that tool. And when you look at the UNWTO sustainable development goals and you know, there's one for gender equity, but every single one of those goals, I think really impacts women disproportionately.

Christine: Like there there's, um, If you look at access to water, education, and you know, everything that you were saying, if we were able to change that or use travel to be a catalyst for change as we're moving through destinations, like, I think we really have the greatest chance of impacting climate. And so I think it's super valuable.

Christine: And again, I wish more people were talking about it. And I know one of the things kind of along this vein. When I first started my company, I really wanted to support menstrual equity. And people would ask, what does that even have to do with travel? Or what does that have to do with supporting women in travel?

Christine: And kind of like you were saying, you know, it was one of those things that I wasn't super aware of was not having access to menstrual hygiene and women's health globally. And That girls then were not staying in the classroom. And then, you know, we're starting this cycle of being married younger, not having education, not having high pay jobs.

Christine: And I just thought, Wow, this is a super easy thing for me to say when we travel, I want to find a way to support menstrual equity where we are, because I just felt like it can be a small catalyst for change and for conversation and for my travelers who are women, like it's something they can relate to and it really strikes home when you understand challenges that other women are facing around the world.

Christine: So for me, this was something that was really important. And I think these are the. The kind of ideas like, you know, if I know Intrepid has initiatives like this, but how do you think

Christine: what other kind of, I'm trying to think of what question I'm like, what are the like bite sized things or the, or the easy ways that we can incorporate this in our businesses and create conversations with our travelers?

Zina: Well, I think the easiest, one of the easiest one is, is the supply chain. We don't talk a lot about supply chain, but, uh, the travel industry You know, as wide as we take it, not just the two operations side, but everything have a power, um, in term of who do they contract? Um, and, uh, um, and there's, uh, actually, because traveling is an easier, uh, industry to access for women because of the low level of education anticipated in, it's also an easier one for entrepreneurs. So there's a lot more entrepreneurs that are women in the travel. And this was small business, small business run by women in the travel industry than they are in any other industry for similar reason. And it's also because they can't access leadership position as easily. So does that again? You end up with your statistics. So choosing your purchasing power as a business to support those small businesses that are run by women can have an immense impact. Talking about it to your customer will engage them because they're women. And this is exactly why we've been so successful with our women expeditions ranch, but more generally our Intrepid Foundation partners, because every one of those G goals that we, um, we have embedded across, um, the Intrepid Foundation as a criteria for, for choosing, uh, um, Charity to support is the women empowerment. And so as a result, we have a lot of different initiatives that we support around the world when we talk about them or when we custom, our customers interact with them, they click straight away because they can relate, um, to your points, um, earlier about menstruation, um, uh, hygiene products, uh, women, uh, traveler that comes across this sort of products. understand how it can be such a challenge. And it's similar with education, young girl education or, or the topics that we touch a lot on different of our trips, different destinations through different ways. So supply chain suppliers, um, lots of different activities that are run or delivered by women. We have women guides as well that we have been, um, working really hard to get. And that's another way. Again, when comparing the statistics between, you know, who's the purchaser, who's, uh, how many women make the industry. And then we look at the tool guiding, um, part of the industry will realize there is a real problem. And this is one of the reasons why we've been actively, um, uh, pushing to get more female to access this job in many countries. Um, and as a result, uh, our travelers get to interact with them and they feel transformed about. You know, they feel, they feel, actually, they feel, um, engaged and, um, Even more, uh, loyal to our brand because they hear firsthand from these women what the company has done for them to get them into these positions and the support and because it's a lot of hard work. It's not easy to, to make this kind of changes as well. So I guess this is, um, you know, we have a lot of different ways to make a difference. Uh, but it's easy to say that we can't and, um, You know, I mean, not doing anything is also an action and that's, uh, and that's a lot of the time what many players in the industry choose to do.

Christine: Yeah, which I think is unfortunate. And I mean, it's the same with many sustainability initiatives, right? There's so many choices, so many options, and it seems so daunting, but just pick one. And, and I think the thing that I love, have loved seeing recently, as you mentioned, so many women are starting their own businesses in the industry.

Christine: Um, I spend a lot of time in that kind of small Entrepreneurial boutique travel space and I feel like at least 90 percent of the companies. I know that startup have a values driven purpose like their purpose driven businesses that they are really Okay. bringing that into a part of how they're operating.

Christine: And if, if you look at that, like, maybe it's small, like mine, maybe it's 30 travelers a year, but that, that it can be done by a, such a small company, to me makes it seem like it should be able to be done by larger companies that have more resources and just picking something and starting there and then Growing it, I think is really important.

Christine: Um, I really wanted to talk to you about, um, you mentioned some of your women's expeditions. And I know that you have an expedition coming up in Saudi Arabia, um, that you guys are just launching, if I'm correct. Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about that, um, why it's so important and then also why you really wanted to choose focusing on women.

Zina: Yeah, no, it's a very good one. Uh, how long do we have?

Christine: I know.

Zina: The topic that's quite, um, quite passionate about, um, just to go back to the history, Women Expedition is a ranch that we operate since 2018. We've launched it with the idea that, uh, the majority of our travelers are women. Um, we wanted to create a form of product that will, or from a travel that will, um, enable in some destinations, um, that will make, um, how to say this, that will Ensure in some destinations that the money of travel and of our travelers gets into the hands of women, uh, directly in those destinations.

Zina: And those destinations are destinations where it is harder to be a woman. If I want to say it in one sentence. So we went with a product in Morocco in Jordan and in Iran, and we really wanted to highlight, um Organizations, um, businesses, experience providers and guide as well. That are all women, women run, um, and that could offer some Interesting perspective to our women travelers that would be very different and impossible to do if it was a mixed gender group.

Zina: So it's not like a, um, girls club, kind of nothing against that. But it's it's it needs. You need it to be meaningful from that perspective. And so that's how the women expedition was was launched. And it was, uh, It's an incredible success. I think we had 300 percent growth year on year from 2018 to 2019, and we started to add more destinations such as Pakistan, India, Peru, Kenya, and all sorts of other places. So, during the just before the pandemic in January 2020, I remember going to the International Women in Travel Forum in Iceland. It was the first one. I don't know if you've been to that one. There was a storm, uh, in Iceland and a lot of people had to cancel their plan, but I managed to go and I remember meeting with the Saudi, Saudi women who honestly educated me.

Zina: She made me change completely my preconception or, uh, idea of, uh, what Saudi women were looking like because she was extremely educated, looked amazing. Seemed empowered, had a very high level position, and she was coming to this forum to, as her and I, learn, exchange, network, et cetera. She was coming from Saudi.

Zina: She was not living in the UK or anything like that. And so I started to think about, after the pandemic hit, and we've had a couple of years when we've seen Saudi doing a lot of publicity, Been going to a lot of trade shows, and I was like, What is this about? Like, what's going on with this country?

Zina: Because I had a different idea. I know they wanted to, um, get away from this image of, uh, this, you know, bad image. Um, but also this, sorry, this dependence. First of all, the dependence on the oil and moving to travel. And to do that, they needed also to change the image and, uh, be seen as the kind of most sustainable place to travel to, et cetera.

Zina: So I was a bit like, uh, uh, Um, questioning and wondering what was going on there. Um, and so as I remember meeting this woman, I remember myself as a Moroccan woman when I moved to France for the first time at 17 to start my studies there, there were people asking me if we were riding camels back home. So there was this perception in France that because I was Moroccan back home in Morocco, we didn't have cars and we were still living in a certain era. And I felt a bit guilty of thinking almost the same about Saudi and Saudi women in particular. And I know that, uh, the human rights records are absolutely, uh, horrific, that women are far from being equal to men in this country, as you know, the countries like my own country, Morocco and others. But the reality is that the progress that tourism has enabled to women, in particular, has been Huge.

Zina: Incredible. And after you heard about it, I've read about it, but I wanted to see it firsthand to understand if it was real and what it looked like. And so I went to Saudi to travel around a little bit around the country to witness it by myself without being in partnership with anyone like no one. from the industry or anything that I was going there. The only thing is I went and I had a local DMC there that's connected me with different guides and connected me with different suppliers that I could, you know, stay in hotels, et cetera, et cetera. And what I've seen is a replication, a bit of this woman that I met in Iceland. Um, so series of women from different backgrounds for different levels of. How to say conservation, if that makes sense, because again, Saudi is a huge country. It's made from tribes that reunited at a certain stage means that there is a lot of diversity within their own country means that depending on which family you're from and which background you are, you will be different in terms of how you assess the Islam and how you how conservative you can be.

Zina: From depending on that. And so as a result, I met a guy that was completely uncovered, that looked, you know, as super mother and traveled the world with her children and husband and travel solo as well. And so I met. This woman, as well as I met a woman that, you know, was wearing the veal, had four kids, was a little bit more from a conservative background, but yet there was something in common between all of these women.

Zina: And that thing was that they were happy and they were, uh, feeling empowered and the feeling that they had this chance for the first time of their life to do whatever they wanted to do. And that's what travel was bringing to them. And so from the women I met who was a divorcee means that she could actually get divorced because before it wasn't the case that she, that traveled to Australia to get.

Zina: Uh, masters. So came back as she had Children, um, and set up a tourism business in Jeddah, which is like a sort of a restaurant with a cooking class. Um, so this woman who was at 11 p. m. hosting male customer in her place, and I was just thinking even in Morocco, you wouldn't do that. And so just to see this level of empowerment and joy and happiness to feel that she could do that from this guide in Medina.

Zina: Medina is the second holiest city of the world. So it was not even, it was forbidden for non Muslims to access. But then being picked up in a car by a women guide, who can drive her own car, knowing that she didn't even have the right to drive three, four years ago, and taking me around this Muslim city, extremely powerful, uh, Um, with, you know, telling me the history of the prophet, telling me the history of the mosque, telling me so many good insights that I was thinking if I was not Muslim myself, I would love just hearing and learning and opening my mind about a religion that's talked about so, in so, so badly in a way in the West. Um, and learning from her as if it was something very good and something that, you know, again, it's about perspective, taking me to her mom's place and learning from, um, how they still live in community. They've got this big building with Part of the family taking one level, but they're all around the mom because the parents would never let them in this country live by themselves.

Zina: And I just felt really, um, I don't know, fascinated about learning about the culture to the eyes of these women, all different, but all, as I said, commonly happy and commonly empowered. So it is The confirmation that if we believe in what we do at Intrepid, we've got to find a way to go to Saudi, but in a way that is going to be meaningful for these people and meaningful for our travelers.

Zina: And that's, that's how the Women's Expedition idea came, came about. So it was in the It was in discussion within the business for a year or so before I went. Um, and then there was a lot of, uh, conversations. The, you know, people who were against, people who were, wanted to interrupt its own co founder went to Saudi as one of the first fan trip was organized by the Saudi tourism authority back in 2018, and he hated it. He said, not that he, he didn't want, he didn't even have an opinion. It's not, it wasn't about the human rights or anything like that because we go to a lot of places. We go to Uganda. We go to a lot of places where arguably human rights are as bad, if not worse, or more or less, you know, but that's not, That's not what we believe in.

Zina: We believe that we have to separate the people from the government and it's the people that benefit from our style of travel. Darren, when he went to Saudi, he couldn't see the people. He hasn't been able, to our point about tourism board and how they promote the destination, instead of putting the host in the center, they put the big shiny hotels, um, that didn't tell anything to our co founder that he could be convinced to go there.

Zina: It's only when I've been and when another colleague of mine went, um, and we. Kind of start to get the stories from the ground that we realize actually there is something for intrepid here. And this is how we came up with the idea of doing a women expedition in Saudi. She's doing really well from a sales perspective.

Zina: It's fully booked first departure in November. So we're pleased with the with the idea and we know it's the people there are so happy. Um, and so, um, the working hard to prepare for the first groups and to host our first travelers there.

Christine: Oh my goodness. Um, well, I looked at it. I tried to, it was sold out. I looked cause I was like, that is, I haven't taken an intrepid trip before, but I was like, if I'm going to do one that I'm, I'm so intrigued and curious about that experience. And I loved hearing about how it, how it was created and the intention behind it.

Christine: And, um, The reason I wanted to go on that is I had had an experience, um, traveling in the Middle East, um, both one time, um, and I won't tell the whole story because I'm sure people have heard it, but where a man offered to take us to his mosque and read the Qur'an from the Qur'an. And, um, it was, it was one of the most powerful travel experiences I've ever had because of the like, Just the genuine love and care and pride.

Christine: And this perception shifting for me in understanding a culture that especially in the U. S. Um, it's really hard to have that perspective. Like, we're really told a different story. Um, and then another time, um, was with a young woman that was explaining, you know, why she chose to have her head covered and that in her culture, it was a choice and, um, what it meant to her.

Christine: And again, it was just this, you know, It was one of those experiences where I was like, if I created travel, this is what I want to have happen because everything about what I know just changed. And also it's a new lens for me to hear whatever else I hear to like, to hold it up against this experience first.

Christine: And so I think it's so important to create travel experiences in the places where we have the least understanding or where the narrative is really controlled. Like, I think it's really important. It's so impactful. And as you mentioned, for women, especially because a group of women can sit with another group of women in a different way than a mixed group can, and it just really is, it's really powerful.

Christine: And if it feels cliche to say that, or it doesn't even feel like it's meaning anything, but having had those experiences firsthand, I just know it really is everything when it comes to creating connections and breaking down. Um, stigmas and, and shifting things because if we keep believing that's true, like if you still believe that, you know, women in Saudi were not empowered, like you could never have done this trip, right?

Christine: Because you just would have been holding up that story. And so, um, I'm really proud to see something like this being created because I think it's truly, truly important. And I'm really excited to hear how it, how it goes for you guys.

Zina: Thanks. Me too. I'm super excited about it. And, um, it's probably was the biggest risk of my career. I felt just before press the button because I've been huge advocate internally to get it above the line. And I knew that when pressing the button, I knew I had a positive gut feeling. Otherwise, I wouldn't work hard for getting it above the line.

Zina: But I felt if this backlash against us. It would be all my fault. But yeah, I'm glad I did it afterwards. It was, it was incredible. And look, Christine, it's the customer response that matters for us and it is not too much the press or whatever. And it's the customer response that's been outstanding. And not that the press wasn't good.

Zina: That's great. But it's our customers, our audience. This is where we really felt we needed to nail it. Um, and it just confirmed our thought about who our audience is. And, um, they're, you know, women who are curious, open minded, who, um, Yeah, and and they loved it. The social media boom that he created and comments we received from from customers telling us we always were wondering about going or not going.

Zina: We were, but now you give us a way to do it, a meaningful way to do it. And there's This kind of comments were really, really good for us to hear and read.

Christine: Yeah. And I think, um, I think you probably know Dr. Anu Taranath. Um, if not, I'll make sure that I share her book, but she is so great about like containers for difficult conversation. And, And learning and growing through travel by like kind of not forcing yourself into those spaces, but you know, really allowing yourself to be in those spaces.

Christine: And I think this is a trip to where, like you were saying, that the type of women that are signing up for it are really ready for that experience, but also then giving them the tools and the space. To have that, that growth and to, and to work through the experience as it's happening and afterwards. So I would be really curious, um, you know, and follow up to find out what that looks like.

Christine: And, and, and, you know, maybe what people. Anticipate and expected and and how and how it maybe was even surpassing what they thought they would get out of the experience.

Zina: Absolutely.

Christine: Um, well, before we end our conversation, um, I have just a few of our rapid fire questions. So it's the easy part of the conversation or some people think it's the hard part, but either way, um, the first question is what are you reading right now?

Zina: Uh, I'm reading, um, I think last time I was with you, I was telling you I was reading a business book. I'm still reading a business book. It's called radical candor and it's written by women. Kim, I can't remember her last name, who used to have a hold leadership positions at big tech companies like Google and Apple. And, um, the reason I'm just finishing it to be honest, I've been on it a long time and I just. Couldn't find time to finish it. Uh, it's just a very good, um, it's a book full of, uh, like leadership advices, people, management, um, advices. And I like the fact that it's written by women because a lot of the business books are written by the, the women.

Zina: by, by exec, but obviously there's many more execs men in this world than women. But a lot of the ones that have been recommended to myself, uh, strategy books, uh, have been written by men. And for once I found, uh, a women writing a book, uh, on leadership and I love. Uh, what she calls radical candor, uh, which is, um, in a way very similar to my style of management that brings, um, uh, brings a personal touch to management style. And, um, I'm someone who I like to get to know people personally. Before I want to be managing them or coaching them or like supporting them to do the job. Um, I spend as much time in my one on ones made my team to talk about what they've done, how the kids are and how life is going for them, then talking about what needs to be done, because I think it's very important to put people in context of their lives to understand, you know how they could perform and what's going on.

Zina: And I love that this. Um, and that's, um, and that's something that she's, I believe, uh, as a, she's been as a leader. And I think it's something that might be very feminine in a way. And that's, uh, and I just, I can relate. And I like to read the book that gives me not just good tips, but also can confirm that what I'm doing is right. In a way, and it's, um, and it's something that, uh, uh, I should continue to do because it could have a great outcome given her success as a business woman. I think I can look up and, um, and apply those advices.

Christine: Oh, I love that so much. I feel like we could have talked a lot about that too, about what we can do as women to lead other women and what kind of spaces we create that really support success in that area. So maybe a third conversation. I feel like again, we could probably have 20 conversations. Um, what, What is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?

Zina: My, uh, skincare.

Christine: Um, To sojourn is to travel somewhere. Oh, it's okay. It is important. Um, to sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while. Where is some place that you would still love to sojourn?

Zina: Sorry. I don't think I heard your question. Can you repeat it?

Christine: Oh, just somewhere that you would love to travel and really be immersed for a short while.

Zina: Oh, uh, well, uh, South Africa and I'm going to South Africa, so I'm glad it's happening. I've always wanted to go. I've been only to Joburg once and I really wanted to go to, um, immerse myself more in the country and, uh, and I'm a big Safari fan. I, um, I love the wildlife and, uh, I'm going to stay with the Black Mambas, which I don't know if you've heard of them, but they are the first, uh, I think the only globally group of women, uh, anti poaching. of women and they, um, they do some amazing work in the cruiser, um, area to, uh, fight against the poacher and protect Reno's as a result. And they are incredible. They do it with our arms and I'm going to stay with them. I'm going to be camping with them. So let's.

Christine: Oh my goodness. Um, oh, 

Zina: Another one for you, 

Christine: yeah, I'm like, please, I just want to follow you around actually every time you talk about your travel experiences. I'm like, I'm just, I've changed careers and I now just carry Xena's bag. That's all.

Zina: with my skin.

Christine: Yeah, your skincare. Okay, um, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?

Zina: Ah, uh, what do I eat? Uh, I mean, I'd say, I mean, anything I eat connects me to the place I've been. But, uh, yeah, I think the, I'm a big Asian food fan and Vietnam. I've been twice in the last 12 months and, uh, love Vietnamese food. And each time I eat something Vietnamese, I just remember the time I've had with the amazing Vietnamese people during my two trips.

Christine: Thank you. Um, who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out to travel the world?

Zina: My dad, big traveler, big, he goes to a lot of places that I do not travel, uh, places still he's 75 years old and he was in the Republic of Congo just a couple of, two months ago. So I haven't been there, but he's, he's a big, big traveler.

Christine: Wow, that's amazing. Um, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?

Zina: Oh my God, fictional. I don't know. I mean, I'd love to find time to travel with my husband because he doesn't have a lot of time either and we never managed to to connect for travel. So we see each other at home a lot. But travel is outside of doing travel with the kids in summer. So I actually would love to. I mean, we're going to South Africa together.

Zina: So that's that's a win. It's been a long time.

Christine: Yeah,

Zina: I don't have

Zina: anyone fictional. Otherwise,

Christine: That's okay. Um, well, the last question. Um, I know that you know that soul of travel is a space for recognizing women in the industry. Uh, who is one woman that you would love to recognize in this space?

Zina: I'd love to recognize that Santos for the work she does, um, to, to highlight the power of solo female travelers and diversity and equity inclusion, especially in the American or not American landscape. I'm a big fan of her. I love Everything she does, I follow her. She's got trick kids. She travels the world.

Zina: I know she struggles and she share her struggles and I love seeing her sharing her struggles because I think it just makes everyone relate and, um, yeah, massive fan, fan of that. Wow. Well, you say hi

Christine: Thank you so much. And, uh, I echo all of that and I'm so excited I get to see her next week. So, um, 

Zina: her then. They have,

Zina: I just got her book actually. So I need to, that's the next one for my wonderful.

Christine: Yep. You can read it on your way to South Africa.

Zina: There you go. All right.

Christine: All right. Well, Zena, thank you so much for being here. I really, really appreciate your time. And as always, I appreciate your expertise and your wisdom. I really value, value the 

Zina: Thank you so much for having me.