Slow Travel, Deep Impact, and Mindful Tourism with Mia Taylor

In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Mia Taylor, Senior Travel Writer and Associate Editor at TravelPulse.

Mia Taylor is a California resident, a lifelong avid traveler, and an award-winning journalist who has worked as a staff writer for some of the country’s and the world’s top publications including BBC, Parents, Real Simple, Better Homes & Gardens, Fortune, and other major publications. Her work has also appeared in Travel + Leisure, U.S. News and World Report, SF Gate, Westways Magazine, The Boston Globe, and TravelPulse. Mia has an M.A. in Journalism and Media Studies and was a member of a team of reporters who received the 2011 Walter Cronkite Award for Excellence in Journalism. She is also the recipient of nine travel writing awards from the North American Travel Journalists Association. The awards recognized  Mia’s coverage of sustainable travel and wildlife conservation, including a gold award for her reporting on cruelty to elephants in the travel industry. Mia regularly appears on podcasts, radio shows and television to discuss trending travel topics. She has been a guest multiple times on RM World Travel, and has also appeared on The Weather Channel, among other broadcasts. 

Christine and Mia discuss:

· Mia’s areas of focus: sustainability, wildlife conservation, and family travel
· Mia’s decision to fly less, why that’s important to her, and what she considers when she chooses to take that flight
· Her journey to understanding animal cruelty in tourism and how we can support change
· The Most Influential Women in Travel List by Travel Pulse
· Juggling personal and professional demands while maintaining personal well-being

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Learn more about Mia and her work.

Connect with Mia on your favorite social media network! Instagram / LinkedIn

Explore Travel Pulse.

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To read our episode blog post, access a complete transcript, see full show notes, and find resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to the Soul of Travel Website. 

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Transcript

Christine: Welcome to soul of travel podcast. I'm your host, Christine. Um, and today I'm really excited to have a conversation with Mia Taylor, who is someone that I really admire in the industry for the way that she has been celebrating voices of women over the past few years. And so it's really exciting for me to get to connect with you face to face instead of email to email and hear a little bit more about your story.

Christine: So welcome to the podcast.

Mia: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I'm excited for our chat.

Christine: Thank you. Well, as we begin, I'll just turn it over to you, Mia, to introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do in the travel industry.

Mia: Sure. So I've been a travel writer for about 15 years now. Um, I started at the street as a luxury travel writer. Um, and during the course of my journey as a travel writer, I sort of veered away from luxury travel and became more and more interested in, um, sustainable travel and wildlife conservation. As I explored the world a little more and sort of, you know, Got a first eye view, hand view of what was going on in the world.

Mia: And so now over the course of my decade or more in travel, I really focus on sustainable travel every chance I get whenever I can write about it or feature someone who's championing, championing the issue or, um, you know, find a new angle that needs to be showcased. That's top priority for me. I'm also a mom now to an 11 year old.

Mia: And, um, You know, one of the reasons I became a travel writer and I've written about this in the past was because my mother started with me when I was very young traveling. And that really, um, informed the person I grew up to be in my view of the world. And so with my own son, it's been a priority. Um, so he has been to many countries already.

Mia: Um, and it, I, I'm amazed by the person he's growing into, and I intend to continue that as a parent, but I also try to model for him sustainable travel and thoughtful travel and slow travel. So all of that is who I am, and it's what I bring to my writing every day.

Christine: Yeah, thank you so much. And I, I really, I really do appreciate it because I think it's, it's as important as ever to continue to bring this conversation to the table and to as many audiences possible in as many formats as possible. So I think that it's really, um, it's just really great whenever you see someone who has shared values and you're, you're cheering them on as well, because this is awesome.

Christine: Obviously something that's important to all of us and it's critical to all of us. And so I just think, um, as opposed to earlier in my career where sometimes I felt like it was a solo battle or there was really few of us, you know, standing side by side. Now it feels very different. And, you know, even now we're, we're just about to, um, step into climate week.

Christine: And that, that has been something really, Um, Incredible to see the tourism industries. Being a part of that and a part of that conversation in a big way. And so I think it's much more front of mind and, and I think conversation level is so has so much more depth and complexity than it has in the past.

Christine: That's exciting to be a part of that.

Mia: I agree. I agree. I do, though, think that we're, you know, after the pandemic, we were really focused on it as things started to ramp back up. And I was just having a conversation with one of my editors a week or two ago about, you know, over tourism is huge problem again. And we seem to have forgotten some of the lessons, at least that we learned as a result of the pandemic.

Mia: Um, we're facing a lot of those very same issues that we faced right before the pandemic. So I hope that as time goes on, we don't forget You know, all those good conversations that I remember seeing on LinkedIn and in, in many conferences in the months and weeks after the pandemic sort of faded into the background.

Christine: I agree. It reminds me of an article and now I hope I'm not going to tell you about your own article because I was reading some of your stuff and I'm reading other things as I always am. But about kind of the over oversaturation of consumers of information about sustainability and responsible travel and kind of that,

Mia: Yeah.

Christine: it's just, they've heard so much about it that they're turning it out kind of, and two, it's, um, like a shut off because it feels like too much responsibility.

Christine: I don't know, you know, what Was it yours? Oh good. I'm glad.

Mia: No, it's actually good. It's a good talking point. Because I do feel like, um, that is a very important discussion to have right now. Which is, I think, people are being bombarded right now with climate change and dread and disaster and sustainable travel and like all those things over and over and over again because we feel like in the industry we Have to tell people, you got to do this.

Mia: You got to do this. You got to do this. But, um, for the rank and file person, I think it is a lot to synthesize and navigate. Um, and I know I book most of my own travel as a travel writer when I'm not on press trips and things. And even I have to like really search long and hard for like, what's the best hotel?

Mia: What's the best mode of transportation? So if you're not in the industry or passionate about it, I can see how it's easy to just go to Expedia, book your hotel and, you know, hit the ground. Running,

Christine: Yeah. So I, I think that'll be really important for us to be thinking about as businesses because I think the other thing that happens from a brand perspective and a tour operator perspective is now like we, we used to have a conversation that says you should be doing, you know, bringing sustainability into your business, but it should be subtle and baked in and nobody should know what's happening.

Christine: And then it was, you know, It has to happen. We should be more transparent than it was kind of like, it's all you should talk about and you should really put that in front of everybody. And so now it's almost,

Mia: Come full circle.

Christine: do we go back to it just is, which I think is really the ultimate goal, right? It just is like travel is sustainable.

Christine: That would be the

Mia: goal. I think that's a really good point. I was at a we travel conference last week about innovation and travel and exactly what you just said. Um, some of the, you know, leading travel tour operators in the world were there and talking about sustainable by design. And one of them, I forget who it was on the panel, said you can't pound your clients over the head with This trip is going to be sustainable.

Mia: You have to say this trip is going to be amazing and, Oh, it'll also be sustainable, you know,

Christine: Yeah, I think it is. It's so interesting when you look at the subtleties in language and how it resonates and how important it is. And then I also know like some of my ideal clients, they are going to see on my website that I have trips that focus on social impact and supporting women. And so then, Like they're saying yes to it because that is what's important to them.

Christine: So I feel like you at this point in time really just have to understand who you're speaking to, why they're coming to you and hopefully be putting the sustainability into your business practices, whether it's. on your homepage or not.

Mia: I agree. And I think it was, um, actually Christina Beckman, who's head of tomorrow's air. I was interviewing her for a story and she also echoed these sentiments that you and I are sharing right now, which is ultimately, um, you know, it can't always be the traveler's responsibility that the airlines have to start.

Mia: Doing this, you know, um, we can't always expect the traveler to hunt down the best way to do things. It's got to become part of the process. And even if that means you pay a little more for it, you know, that's part of the process in the same way you pay a little more for organic food or things like that.

Christine: Yeah, I agree. Like it is very hard as a consumer to find that. And like you mentioned, even when you are someone who's savvy or understands what you're looking for, it still can be difficult. So the easier the industry makes it for people to, you know, if it's the only thing on offer, it's the only thing chosen.

Christine: And so I think we obviously have a long way to go, but there's so many people making great strides. And I'm so glad you mentioned Christina Beckman because she's someone who's definitely in the forefront of making those great strides. And my listeners, if you haven't heard my conversation with her, you can go back, I think maybe two or three episodes or seasons, but you can hear that.

Christine: And I'll try to link it in the show notes as well. Um, one of the other articles of yours that I, um, read or, um, a post on LinkedIn that you were talking about flying less. So you just mentioned like when you are looking for flights. You're trying to find the most sustainable options and hotels and all of those choices.

Christine: Um, but if you're making a choice to fly less, um, I know that's a huge conversation. I've talked with other journalists and tourism professionals and even in my own life have been trying. To figure out how to be more conscious with when I'm choosing to fly, which can be really difficult because as you know, especially this month, uh, or October, I feel like every association has a conference, there's all these things, there's the climate week, which I have.

Christine: had planned to go to. And then I was like, you know, I'm flying all the way to New York for this one day event for the particular conference I wanted to go to. And, um, you know, going to be in and out. And I'm like, that actually feels so counterproductive

Mia: Right.

Christine: I wish to be there, that I actually chose that I couldn't do that this

Mia: Oh, wow.

Christine: Um, but I'd love to hear what some of your thought processes are about that and what you weigh when you're looking at

Mia: Yeah, it's it's a tough one because, you know, both you and I come from, I think, the same place, which is we love to explore the world and experience cultures and, um, connect with people. And so in order to do that, you have to get there somehow. Um, but I think, as I mentioned in that article, while all of that is still important to me, um, what I'm trying to do are sort of is a two pronged thing for work.

Mia: If I'm invited on a press trip. And like I said, in the article I wrote about this, I'm. As all journalists are, you're invited to dozens of press trips a month and hundreds a year. So I look for two or three things in those press trips. I look for, does this tie into my core values, um, which are sustainability and wildlife conservation and also family travel?

Mia: Um, you know, if it doesn't, Tie into one of those three things. That's almost an instant reason for me to say no, unless I'm required to go on this trip. I work if it does, then I look at, well, how long is this trip? You know, am I going to be there for a day? Like you mentioned for the conference or is this four or five days, you know, so I'm not just jetting in and out.

Mia: And using a lot of having a big impact on the planet for a day. And I won't, won't, won't say yes anymore to these one or two day press trips. I just think that it's incumbent upon those who are planning trips as well as it is on me to be more thoughtful about how you plan trips. Um, so I think the PR people of the world and the DMOs of the world have got to plan these more thoughtful trips.

Mia: Um, and then if I can, I extend the trip. You know, if I can bring my son, if we can spend a couple extra days there, if it becomes a more meaningful thing overall, that's, you know, bonus icing on the cake, but I'm also trying to set measurable goals for myself where we take two sort of big trips as a family each year, um, one in the summer and one on spring break.

Mia: And then as a travel writer, keep it to like three ish or so, so that I, you know, five trips a year and you know, I think you and I were chatting about this earlier, um, but for some people, five trips is a lot a year, but for other people in our industry, that's nothing. So I'm still navigating this and I'm trying to find the right balance for me and my job and my family and all of that.

Mia: But. I really do feel like I take a lot of time and think about, you know, is this going to be worth it? And on personal trips, the one other thing I'll add quickly is that, um, like the summer we went to Sicily and we spent a month there. And I did that because I want to make the most of that impact I'm having on the planet.

Mia: And that's part of the whole slow travel trend that there's been a lot of articles about, but I, that really resonated with me when I read about that. You know, if you're going to go make it last, make it worth it. And so that's what I'm doing with all my trips now. On a personal basis is we're going to spend at least three weeks.

Mia: We're going to go to Japan this summer. We're going to spend three weeks there. I'm not going to fly all that way just to spend a week there.

Christine: Yeah, I think that those are really important considerations, and I know not all of us have the luxury of adding that extra time, or, you know, with our own personal travels, but I just think the more conscious you are about it, and maybe if you're going for a week, maybe you stay a week in one town, and then you don't also spend time, you know, moving to all these different places, like, there's all these different ways, it's like, what's, I guess, one step better, like, how could I just be Bye.

Christine: Well. Make one. Level of more conscious travel decision

Mia: I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, because that's an important point. You're right. Not everybody can spend three weeks. I work remotely, so I can like work from destinations and stuff, but it's really important there. Not everybody has the time and resources to spend three weeks. So there are things you can do, like you said, which are really important, which is stay in one place when you're there, rather than inter country flights, zigzagging all over the country, hitting all the boxes while you're there, you know, explore one place more deeply is a really good point.

Mia: Yeah.

Christine: And one thing too, that I've been playing with in the idea of, you know, you mentioned making the travel experience itself more meaningful. Um, I have been studying, um, Ayurvedic medicine. Which, you know, talks a lot about your personal constitution and the things that actually are good for who you are.

Christine: And I was kind of playing with that and the idea of travel and then also the idea that a lot of times people either look to travel for escape or travel for healing or, you know, whatever the catalyst is for that. But my thought was, You know, you're often thinking about that travel choice as where you're going and not why you're going.

Christine: So even if you need healing or you need retreat or you need, um, you know, adventure, whatever it is that you're looking for, if you're thinking about the where over the why, you might not get it. And it leaves that same sense of lack that you tried to feel with travel. And then you are. going to be left seeking.

Christine: So then you're going to be taking another trip to fill the same hole. And so I think getting really conscious about why you're traveling also will really help it to be more meaningful and then actually more sustainable because you're not using travel as this way to like scratch the itch. Like you actually know what you're after and you're more likely to get it.

Christine: So that's like, that's kind of taking all my years of, professional tourism career and adding it to my wellness and like trying to think about it from a different place. But, but I think that that's maybe something that we really need to be thinking about because even travel is becoming more expensive or returning to the level of expense it was that we've forgotten.

Christine: However, you look at that and, um, and it's not as easy to just Take these quick getaways as well or to afford them. So I think we really do just need to be thinking about why you're traveling. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. But

Mia: I do. I think that's an excellent point, too. And again, at the We Travel, um, Innovation Summit last week, one of the speakers, I think it was Rob Holmes, brought that up, which is, you know, we need to educate travelers about how they think about travel. And like you said, why are they traveling? And if you're traveling to have meaningful time with your family, um, and that's what's driving you to get on that plane and go to that place, right?

Mia: Yeah. Yeah. You don't need to zigzag all over a country once you get there to do that, you know, and you don't need to go to the Barcelona's. You can go to second tier cities that are less over touristed or over, you know, traveled and still have that quality vacation time with your family. Um, so it's really about.

Mia: You know, bringing it back to the traveler and having them think more deeply about what is the purpose of this trip. Um, and multi gen travels big right now. And I think it's big right now because people do want that quality time together while exploring another country, but you don't have to go to Barcelona or you don't have to go to Venice.

Mia: You could go to, you know, Puglia and somewhere else and still have that same Italian experience slowly. And, you know, with less impact.

Christine: yeah, that's so crazy, right? As you said, the word Pulea, I was literally imagining this time that I spent with my family there. And as you said, it just gave me such chills because that's what I was thinking of. I was thinking one of the most. Kind of memorable experiences that we had was we were near a SUNY and we were in this little house that we rented kind of even far out of that city and, um, my kids loved it so much because it was a house with a pool, which will always be a win for children, right?

Christine: But and stray cats that we were feeding. But. But here's the thing is we hardly ever left it and we almost assimilated into the space that we were like we went in and bought our groceries and we cooked our food and we fed the cats and we went for walks in the neighborhood and

Mia: That is the best form of travel in my mind.

Christine: yeah they loved it so much like that's they always are like remember the place where we had cats like like they were you know um and I think we get so caught up by the the way That we have currently been taught to think about travel, which I, I love that, that Rob shared about this is like redefining how you think about it.

Christine: We have been told this is what travel looks like and feels like and should be, um, for a very long time. And I've, I've talked about this before on the podcast, but. think it's even more important for ourselves now to have these really deep connective experiences. There's so much in our world that is isolating and disconnecting and so going somewhere else is great because it is so, uh, changes who, who you are and how you see the world, but Just being there without being so busy and frenetic.

Christine: Like you said, if you want to connect with your family, it's so hard to do that when you're in the car for eight hours and then like standing in line to enter some really busy museum and you can have these really beautiful experiences. away and I would love to talk about second tier cities. I know you also recently were writing about over tourism and what that looks like right now, which we're seeing just this peak of understanding, I guess, or re understanding what it is.

Christine: Can we talk a little bit about that?

Mia: Yeah, I think it's such an important topic. And, um, again on that one, Rob hit the nail on the head, which is, um, you, not all destinations are going to have the same, um, way to deal with over tourism. And not all destinations are going to want to spread out over tourism through the shoulder seasons to make summer easier on those destinations.

Mia: So, um, You know, over tourism is a really complex problem and it's, it's on the rise again or across the world because we all are wanting to travel as much as possible in the post pandemic world. And there's been all kinds of headlines, you know, this past six months to year, I want to say from Venice to Barcelona, you know, in, Them announcing different measures, like increased tourism taxes and limiting group sizes and no loudspeakers in Venice.

Mia: And, you know, I look at all of that and I think, why don't we just go somewhere else for a while, or, you know, just not for a while, but why do we all have to go to Venice? Why do we all have to go to Barcelona? When. This summer, my family, we went to Sicily and we went to so many second tier cities. And we were in Artesia and I would go out for walks and there was no one else on the street, no one.

Mia: Um, and it was a beautiful experience. And so we still had an Italian experience. We still, you know, enjoyed being in Italy, but we didn't go to Venice or Rome or Florence. Um, so my thoughts about that are, there are so many wonderful second tier and second tier for people who may not. No, or just cities that aren't as popular yet, or, um, their infrastructure for tourism may not be as developed.

Mia: And, um, but there are beautiful places where you can have that deeper connection with locals. Um, and they need the tourism dollars. So why not help support those second tier cities? And, and there's so many travel advisors who can point you in the direction of those places, if you're not sure what a second tier city is or which one to pick, um, Um, there's lots of experts out there who can get you there, but it's a really great way to spread the support around the world of your travel dollars and have a more meaningful and peaceful experience.

Christine: Yeah, and I think, you know, as you just mentioned, the spreading the economic benefit, I think that's a really huge thing, too, that if you're looking at how you can just make one easy choice, that that is something that is really impactful, and honestly, I, I ended up traveling last summer Um, with my girls in Europe, we had, um, a dance camp.

Christine: My daughter was going to, and I had a conference. And so we kind of like wove things together, which had us being in Europe in the summer. It was my first time being in many of those places in the world. Um, It was, and not just this one that just ended, I'm sorry, a whole year, a year ago, but, um, for me, it was so eye opening, after having, always having these conversations about, you know, the height of travel in Europe in the summer, or what does this look like and feel like, and to be walking through it like a living textbook in some ways, um, I, I had to navigate a lot.

Christine: I had to navigate a lot, like the emotional things that I felt, the guilt I felt for like being a burden to a place that I felt like didn't need to be hosting me in that moment, to really wanting to show my children some of these things that they had learned about and were excited to see, um, to having really Powerful conversations with them.

Christine: I remember we, we, um, were in Greece for a month and we were really staying in places that there were not a lot of other travelers, but to fly out, we went to Santorini for three days the difference between. Where we were in Santorini was obviously very noticeable. Um, we were probably headed in, it was about this time last year, so kind of on the edge of shoulder season there, but still very busy.

Christine: And I remember one of my daughters, when we were in this line, just walking through one of the narrow, You know, sidewalks to get from one part of the island to another. And, um, with like just hundreds of people walking through these sidewalks. And then one of my daughters looked at me and she's like, you know, they keep saying that the tourist season is almost over, it's almost over, it's almost over.

Christine: What are these people going to do when everyone leaves? They're all here serving tourists do however they have jobs. What do they do? I and I was like, wow, that is a

Mia: That's a very insightful question for a young person.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, and I was like, it's such a good question. We should ask someone that question the next time we have the opportunity But just kind of going back to the lived experience of over tourism like It was just such a profound way to understand what we're talking about.

Christine: Like I normally avoid it, but I think in this moment, it was really powerful for me to actually experience it so that I can have the context for the conversations. So I think, um,

Mia: I'm curious what you told your Children about for your two daughters about all the people that were there. And maybe did you talk to him about better ways to travel the world when they get older or anything?

Christine: Yeah, I mean, we always have those conversations. They're probably like, Oh, my gosh, mom, please stop talking about it. But, but we, but we do. And, you know, and I said, you know, a lot of the people that are here in Santorini might go actually return to a different home on the mainland. in Greece for the rest of the year.

Christine: And, you know, we've had some of those conversations, but yeah, they, they, they really found on their own that when we were traveling, the times that we spent where we felt more a part of where we were, where we felt included, where we stayed in smaller venues and like someone's grandma was making us fresh bread every morning and knew we were there.

Christine: And we felt. Like, we've just really felt cared for and we didn't feel, they could feel the difference between feeling cared for and feeling like a burden.

Mia: Yeah, I think. And it's a tough. It's such a complex problem because another person on the panel last week said. But um, Everybody wants to at least see the Eiffel Tower once and everybody wants to, you know, go to Rome once and see the Colosseum once. And I don't blame them. I did too. So, um, this other person's suggestion was, you know, if you're going to do that, do that later at night or earlier in the morning, you know, less peak times of day.

Mia: So you're not part of that burden. Um, so that's another sort of thought for people who Haven't had the opportunity yet to go to the Eiffel Tower or the Coliseum and don't want to skip Machu Picchu altogether Just think about and it touches on your point of what are these people going to do who are serving the tourist industry when?

Mia: The tourists are all gone So for some destinations spreading out the traveling through more of the year is a big A good solution for them because then they do have income longer into the year. Um, that may not be the answer for every destination, but it is for some of them. So those are, you know, there's a couple of ways that travelers can think about over tourism, you know, go later in the morning, go earlier and go later at night, earlier in the morning, or, um, later in the year in October, November, one of my editors at parents and travel and leisure, she travels a lot in November and December, which aside from Christmas and Thanksgiving, Um, are much quieter months of the year.

Mia: And her son always has these amazing, meaningful interactions with locals that she tells me about. Yeah, yeah,

Christine: I know, and I'm going to have to, um, email Rob after this and be like, okay, your ears must be burning because we just keep talking about him. Um, and for my listeners, I did interview him way back. I think he might've been my third conversation when I just first began to conceptualize Soul of Travel.

Christine: Um, and I was speaking with people who I knew were doing great things in the industry to bring that to light during the pandemic. 2020 right after the pandemic began, but, um, you know, you kept saying like, what is better for the destination? And I know one of his things was saying, yes, we talk about extending travel year round, but some destinations need to heal during the off season.

Mia: totally.

Christine: And I grew up in one of those. destinations. So when I read that, um, you know, when you were sharing that thought, I was like, wow, yes, that is really important. So it's such a wise, I think it's always the wise idea to ask communities what they want out of tourism. And, and I think that is a relatively new concept.

Christine: I know there's some of us who have been talking about it for a long time, but for it to be a real part of the conversation that destinations don't exist for us to travel to them and we don't get to consume them at our whim, which again is kind of this larger narrative that we've been a part of and travel for a really long time.

Christine: And the idea that you should say, You know, gosh, I had noticed it's so busy when I've come here in July. What does it look like in November? Do you wish there were that many travelers here in November? Or do you just, like, hunker down and read and, you know, go hiking? Or, you know, I think just really being honest about the fact that these places exist outside of travel, whether they're tourism hotspots or not, is super important.

Mia: Yeah. And I think that's a great point that I didn't bring up myself, which is ask the locals, like, you know, do you want travelers here in November or December? Like, they're key to any solution. Obviously, it's their home. So, um, if we're talking about all stakeholders being at the table for these solutions, I mean, the conversations really got to be driven by the locals, not us.

Mia: So that's really important point.

Christine: Yeah, I think it is. It's a great place to start. And again, as I witnessed that as a child, I knew like, come like Labor Day, I was like, Oh, we get maybe two weeks at our lake before it'll start to get too cold to swim there. Or, you know, two weeks where we can eat at the local hotspots without having to fight the weekend people or the lake people for food.

Christine: You know, and it's just, I think that might be really where The idea of maybe more conscious travel came from for me is because I felt so impacted by it. And I just questioned whether that was reasonable. And I think I just never stopped questioning. Like I always like wanted to come at it from the perspective of the place and the people.

Mia: Right.

Christine: Who are experiencing the travelers and not just the experience of a traveler?

Mia: I don't live in, I live in San Diego, so it's not a small town that's impacted by travel, but I will say that Every year I say to my son and my friends, like, I can't wait till October because October is sort of when people don't think of coming to San Diego as much. And for me, it's the most beautiful month at the beaches here because the beaches are quieter and, um, the roads are quieter.

Mia: And I mean, it's spread out over a much bigger geographic area area here in San Diego. But I really do understand for smaller places, um, how that impact can be felt even more deeply.

Christine: Yeah Um, well one of the things I mentioned as I was introducing you Um is the way that you've been really supporting women in the industry. Um, how important that is to me Uh, it was super honored to be included in your list of most Influential women in travel that you published with travel pulse two years ago I know you did another list last year, which Was the most I think it was the highlight of my entire year, um, at the beginning of this year when you said you just put an email on LinkedIn.

Christine: You're like, I'm going to do this again. Are there any, is there anyone that you would recommend or who you think needs to be celebrated for their work and the outpouring?

Mia: Yes. Great.

Christine: It was incre I mean, it was just, I was like, this is what I'm here for. This, this was incredible. And everybody was just celebrating each other.

Christine: And then like someone would write a name and someone else would be like, yes, they're absolutely incredible. And that reminds me of this person. And it was such a really powerful experience, but I would love to hear from you a little bit about How this idea emerged, your experience curating this, and then maybe a few standout people that you learned about that maybe you didn't know before you began writing this.

Mia: Sure. And I do want to comment on that whole LinkedIn phenomenon that we had there. I thought that was. So heartwarming because you often hear about, I don't know, women not supporting other women or just those hold those tropes about, you know, stabbing each other in the back, whatever it is, you know, but in that instance, in that moment with that LinkedIn, uh, post, like women were really raising each other up.

Mia: And that was such a nice feeling to see. And the previous year when I had curated the list that I didn't, I don't recall if I put. A LinkedIn post out. Maybe I did that, but for whatever reason, this year, this most recent list was just. You know, so many more people responded and we had a hard time narrowing it down.

Mia: Um, but to get back to your initial question, which is I actually was handed this project. Um, I think a writer before me came up with the idea if I recall. Um, but it wasn't, Um, as well developed. So I was asked to take it over. Um, so I put my fingerprints on it in ways that are speak to me. And, and, you know, by asking, calling out for women who are doing things in sustainability and DEI and, um, things that, um, I think are, you know, whenever we sort of break down who the winners are each year, I look for those people who are really addressing.

Mia: The most important pressing needs facing the planet right now. So that's how I brought my own personal touch to it because I do think, and I write this in the intro every year that the planet is at such a critical juncture, um, that we need innovators and we need to raise those innovators up and show the world what they're doing to, to a show that it.

Mia: You know, you can make a difference. It can be done. And here's some of the creative ways that people are tackling what's going on with the planet. But, you know, most importantly, above all that it's women. And like, for me, I love reading the submissions every year because it's so inspiring and, um, it just makes me want to be a better, better person and do better each year.

Mia: And I'm so proud of women for, you know, Leading the way in so many unique ways. My mind is always blown every year when I see the things that women are doing in their corners of the world. And so, um, you know, I'm thinking of people like this year on the list, Lauren Bates. She's the founder of Wild Terrains, and she was somebody I didn't know anything about.

Mia: She was nominated, um, you know, by somebody on LinkedIn. But I'm just gonna, you know, she's, you know, Started a certified B corporation and wild terrain caters exclusively to women travelers and focuses on supporting women owned businesses in destination and telling a story about that destination and opening up conversations within the destination with those travelers.

Mia: I would have never thought of that, you know, and I just thought that's a really great way. Not only is she went on business, she's supporting women owned businesses and destinations and she's helping women to have more meaningful connections when they travel. Um, so there was so many layers to what she's doing that I just thought, wow, she's wonderful.

Mia: Um, Olivia Cryer, um, who's the co founder of the conscious travel foundation along with her best friend, Marty Tomlinson. Um, wonderful concept that I hadn't thought of, but they are a nonprofit organization or they had, they created a nonprofit organization, um, that collaborates education and, um, advocates for more positive, sustainable travel.

Mia: Again, key issue facing the world. Um, And they also support grassroots projects on the ground. So they're trying to have an impact on many levels. And I just think people like that who are really, cause it can be exhausting. You know, we all get tired and we all start to feel like. You know, I'm not making a difference being a vegan.

Mia: I'm not making a difference, not flying as much if it's just me. Um, but every little thing that one of us does adds up and we can start to have a collective impact. And these women aren't getting exhausted and they're devoting their entire day waking hours career to these things, Christina Beckman, head of tomorrow's air is another one who I was on this year's list.

Mia: And I admire immensely because she is tackling an issue that I lay awake And I think about which is carbon emissions and how to deal with that. Stephanie Jones, who's the founder of, um, cultural heritage, economic alliances, tackling D E I and travel and how to, um, shine the light on black owned businesses and minority owned businesses, another really important issue right now.

Mia: So, you know, just rattling off some of these things, you can see that women are really thinking about everything and they're tackling everything. And so this list is an honor and a privilege to do.

Christine: Yeah. And thank you again. I just, because it's so aligned with my heart, like when I, when I see it, it's, it's just such a treasure. And many of those women are people that I, you know, that I know and admire. And so for me, this podcast, that's what it's about, is shining a light on. On women and the innovation and the impact we can have and I think the other thing is when you create a list like that Or when I look at you know, my my podcast page and all the faces next to each other There's something about how it might feel to be one person doing one thing focusing on one area But when you see yourself In a group like that, whether they're people, you know, directly or not, you think, Oh my gosh, we are doing this thing that we're setting out to do.

Christine: Right. And I don't actually have to do every part of it because look at all these people who are alongside me again, whether that's indirectly or directly, we're creating the impact that we want to create. We're doing the thing that makes our soul feel. alive. We're, we're doing these things that energize us.

Christine: And, um, the collective spirit of it, I think is maybe the most important thing.

Mia: Yeah, I'm glad to hear that. You know, I'm glad to hear that, you know, seeing sort of all the headshots of these women and all the things that they've dedicated themselves, makes you feel like you're part of this greater good, because that's really important to keep you motivated and keep you going, you know, so I'm glad it's received that way.

Mia: And I do think that it's one of the most important things we do at travel posts each year, um, to let women know that a, their work is appreciated. It's recognized and it's really important. Um,

Christine: Um, well, I know one of the other topics that's really important to you is, um, conservation and animal welfare and travel. And you wrote a few pieces about elephants and tourism, um, back in 2019. Um, I would love to hear from you a little bit about maybe if there was an experience that was a catalyst for that awareness and then also what you think the landscape looks like now and what steps we are being successful at and maybe not being successful at towards removing animal cruelty from tourism.

Mia: you know, it's interesting when I was in my twenties, I went to Thailand and I did what everybody does when they go to, well, not everybody, but back then, what a lot of people did is you take an elephant ride on the back of an elephant because you think that's what they do in Thailand or it's fun or it's traditional, or, you know, it's what you've seen in postcards and pictures.

Mia: Um, and then I became a travel writer later. And. I think I got a press release from Intrepid that perhaps started to, the light bulb went off and it was Intrepid had decided, um, and I admire Intrepid travel immensely. Let me just say that. But, um, they had decided to no longer support, um, operators that offered tour rides, tour rides on elephants.

Mia: Um, and I started digging into why did they make that decision? And you know, what's that all about? And when I, you can't unlearn. The horrifying things that I learned as I started digging in about Fajan, which people are, many people are not aware of. I know I have friends who went to Thailand recently and did the elephant ride innocently like I did 20 years ago.

Mia: So Fajan means crushing an elephant spirit. Um, And that the way Mahouts do that is they separate a baby elephant from the mother, they bind its front and back legs, put it in a very small enclosure so it can't turn around, and then they drive spikes into the, uh, elephant's foot and into its head, and also to torture with the goal of crushing that elephant's spirit so that it will be submissive for a lifetime.

Mia: Of supporting tourism activities and just reading that stuff. The first time I read the reports, there's lots of investigations into it made me physically ill and I thought I could never be part of that again. But not only could I never be part of that again, I need to spread the word about it because I was so upset about it.

Mia: So I actually first started writing about it in 2016 when I was a luxury writer at the street travel writer. And then I wrote about it again at travel pulse when I came here and I write about it whenever I get the chance to write about it because To your second question, some change has taken place over the decade almost, but not enough.

Mia: You know, those elephant rides are still being offered and countless tourists are still taking those elephant rides. And I think it was maybe, uh, A year after the pandemic ended, there was all kinds of reports of, because now climate change is a bigger thing. Elephants are being ridden in the excessive heat and on the trails, they're collapsing.

Mia: So not only are they being tortured by for John, but they're collapsing and, you know, unbearable heat. And then they don't have water and they don't have food. So anyway, to sum it all up, you know, if you're, um. Able to touch or ride an elephant. That elephant has gone through a submissive, um, breaking process and world animal protection, which is a global nonprofit.

Mia: Not everybody agrees with their sort of aggressive tactics to raise awareness about these issues, but I really admired the work. That they do. They've been really trying to help create sanctuaries in Asia throughout Asia for elephants where you don't touch them and their true sanctuaries. Um, so I think the bottom line is that there we've, we've made some progress, but there's a lot more progress to be made.

Mia: And it, it is. Travelers, if they can, should really educate themselves before they engage in any activity involving, um, animals, wild animals. If you're taking a selfie with an animal at a facility, that animal has been drugged so that it doesn't attack you. And I don't visit facilities like that anymore.

Mia: My best experience was I went to Kenya, um, with big life foundation. And if you want to experience animals in Africa, do things like this. So I went with. Um, intrepid travel. They offered a trip with Big Life Foundation, which is a nonprofit based in East Africa. And they let us walk day after day with, um, the people who are charged with protecting elephants.

Mia: Um, and so every morning we'd wake up and we'd go out and we'd walk with them and we'd help them gather their photo traps and see where the rhinos were. And, you know, and we would see the elephants this way, a natural way where we're not riding them. Or, um, even, you know, asking them to be in a zoo or forcing them to be in a zoo and not asking.

Mia: So I'm really passionate about it. I could go on, I could do a whole show about this, but I just think it's incumbent upon us as, um, a civilization to. Animals are not there for our entertainment. And I saw a post recently that said that my children are not going to know, or the next generation of children are not going to know what it's like to see, you know, a lot of these animals in the wild anymore, because there's so few of them left on the planet.

Mia: And that just really broke my heart. Yeah,

Christine: I, um, as you said, this could probably be its own, um, own conversation, but I think it's one of these moments, uh, there's been so many guests that I've talked to, you know, specifically with, with elephants in Thailand, that this was like kind of that first, the first experience that they had or reflected upon or thing they learned about that actually allowed them to begin to question other things.

Christine: Within their own travel experiences. Um, because I guess it's so such a universal experience. I mean, there's so many of us who have traveled, whether it was elephants or, you know, often places it's birds or monkeys, or like you said, um, I was somewhere in, um, Kenya and they had a cheetah that, that you could go into it's cage with it and take a picture, which I was like, the scenes in Kenya crazy, but everybody was with was like, yeah, you, this is what you have to do.

Christine: And I remember just like walking in there thinking this is so bizarre, but it's happening so fast. And I don't want to offend the person who was like, this is a real treat that you get to do this. And I was like, it is a real treat. And like, I was like, okay, I'm I'm I'll do this thing that you're so happy to like, tell me I get the privilege of doing.

Christine: And then afterward, like that initial. Thing that told me like this can't be okay like just kind of nod at me And and it did it had me asking more questions like you know, how did this happen? Why did this happen? It's clearly not safe for the animal is it safe for the handlers is you know other? kids that are going in there with a wild animal and It's such a complex thing To think about and then, you know, the, the, there's all of the ideas of that.

Christine: It's, you know, maybe socially acceptable in the, in the country that it's happening in. So then. You're going in and you're telling you're using your outside views to tell them this isn't socially acceptable. And so then that is a real complex and difficult conversation. And, you know, our worldview doesn't have to be everyone's worldview.

Christine: And so, um, I, yeah, I feel like I really appreciate when people are vulnerable enough to look at their own experiences and question and then also to help tell these stories to ask more questions,

Mia: is. Yeah, it's so complex. You're and I'm glad you said, you know what you did about it. Our worldview being imposed on that country, you know, and that's not always okay, you know? And, um, so it is, it's as complex as over tourism, if not more complex of an issue, because, you know, as you learn more about the elephants again, for instance, if these elephants are not, um, in these facilities where tourists can ride them, And we let, and they're let go.

Mia: Where do they go? What happens to the Mahout whose livelihood is based on this job? So. You can't just tell these countries stop offering, um, elephant rides. You have to find a sustainable alternative, and that's why I admire sort of World Animal Protection and some other organizations that are doing similar things because they're not just saying, don't offer these rides and you won't have this living way to make a living.

Mia: They're saying, here's an alternative, and we're going to help you come in and set up this alternative. And that way you can sort of transition from one model to another. And not just bare bones here. You can't do this and figure it out on your own, you know? So there has to be a conversation. And again, it goes back to sort of the same solutions as over tourism.

Mia: The locals have to be involved. They have to lead the way. And there has to be this sort of mutual dialogue.

Christine: Yeah, I think it's so interesting, or I guess I wonder. I know that I specifically got into tourism because of my, um, passion's not quite the right word, but this idea of social justice and social impact. Like, I have a degree in sociology and then somehow tourism fell into And then I was trying to, I just kept trying to shove those two things together.

Christine: And so I think many of us maybe entered the tourism industry without the realization that we would be a part of some of the most difficult conversations that are going to be happening in our lifetime. I mean, like you said, we're talking about DEI, we're talking about, um, power dynamics. We're talking about, um, You know, water access, we're talking like all of these things in up in our realm, um, whether you attended to be a part of that conversation or not in travel, I think we're really realizing that we are kind of on the front lines of this because we are walking through the world in our, in our businesses.

Christine: And we can be great advocates for change and agents of change. And, um, Yeah, I, I just think it's, I, I often wonder, I'm like, did the person that took the job as the marketing director for whatever travel company realized that they were now going to be shaping their brand's narrative around DEI?

Mia: it's a weighty, weighty industry to be in right now. And I love the way you expressed it, which is walking through the world. I mean, I do think that's a really, um, important point that we are sort of out there in the world and how we handle ourselves and how we show up and how we. teach future generations or even current travelers how to show up is so important.

Mia: I mean, we all have to be so conscious of like the, the role models that we are, you know, and walk the walk.

Christine: Yeah, I, I, um, obviously I really agree with that because I think it's so important, but I, I love spaces and conversations like this and being able to talk with someone like you to just, like put it out there, right? Sometimes it's hard, but also you learn so much. And for me, that's like my number one personal value is, is learning and growth.

Christine: And so I think it's okay. And I think the other thing that comes into this. You know, when, when we're talking about any of these topics we've talked about so far is the idea to know that you didn't know better before. And it's okay to excuse past choices before you had the information that you have now.

Christine: But much like you said, when you learned about the treatment of animals in Thailand, like you can't ever unknow the information. So it's what you do with it once you have

Mia: Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. I mean, this isn't about shaming anyone. You know, I felt terrible when I learned about how I participated in that process, but then I turned that around and, you know, tried to be part of the solution and we can all try to be part of, to grow and be part of the solution in our own way moving forward rather than dwelling on, well, I'm, I feel guilty about this, you know, try to be part of the change moving forward and be an advocate for, you know, what you've learned.

Christine: I know one of the last things and we just have a few more minutes left, but that you write a lot about is parenting. We've talked a little bit about the importance of, um, traveling with our children, what that creates in their lives. But I also wanted to talk to you about Another topic that comes up a lot here on the podcast is this idea of work life balance and you and I have had talked yesterday about the idea that we're like, there's no balance.

Christine: There is simply like juggling and moving like three balls from here to there and how that looks in your life and how you bring career parenting and even just well being, which is something if I'm honest. Holy cow. I'm in the middle of a real juggle between these things and ensuring that wellbeing still happens. Um, what, what does that look like for you and maybe what wisdom do you have to share your experience?

Mia: such a, uh, uh, important question in my life. So in full transparency, I've had breast cancer twice. I just had it again in October. So wellbeing and balance is, um, more important to me, um, every day right now than it has ever been in my life. And I'm a single mom. So my days are crazy. You know, I have a, uh, Primary client travel posts that I write for every, uh, several times a week.

Mia: And I have, I write for parents and I write for SF gate and all these things. So my weeks are full of deadlines that I'm always juggling. Um, but what I've learned to do for me, and this may not work for everyone is to say, no, you know, I've learned to not schedule meetings. In the mornings, really early mornings anymore, because that's my time where I have to take care of my health and go for walks and meditate or whatever it is that I need to do for me.

Mia: Um, And then I've also learned, and I wrote about this for parents recently, but I had started doing it on my own, how to help my son be more independent as he gets older, because then that alleviates some of the juggling that I have to do with career and the house and his things that he needs and. You know, the story I was assigned is there's this sort of epidemic of parents who are like doing everything for their kids and overscheduling their kids.

Mia: And, you know, then the kids don't ever become very independent. So I think in my household, in order to function, my son has to be more independent and he's. Starting to do that. Um, but I really think that you have to learn to set boundaries, um, in order to be able to juggle everything that you want to do as a woman and as a professional and as a mom and, and, you know, manage your days, no day is going to be perfect and you just have to navigate that with grace and forgive yourself for the things that you do wrong or when you fall down or whatever.

Mia: But, um, you know, I would also say with regard to family and travel that I think it's so important to to take your children and explore the world with them and I make that a priority every year in our household because it is so important to raise a world citizen who, um, understands different cultures and ways of life and, um, wants to be a part of the world and help the world.

Christine: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing on both counts. Cause I think it can be, it can be so difficult and. Overwhelming. And I think the grace is the most important thing, right? I mean, there's no way that we're getting the gold star at the end of every day, as much as we wish that we could, like, just letting that go is often sometimes so helpful.

Christine: But I think for me too, is realizing it's so easy as a parent and a business owner and someone with a lot of obligations to be self sacrificing. Like it's so easy to do it.

Mia: Yeah.

Christine: It's almost impossible not to do it in fact, but we, I think realize, and I'm sure you can relate when your health topples, you realize that if you haven't cared for yourself, you're caring for no one else.

Christine: And so I think for people listening, Permission to prioritize yourself, whatever that looks like, if it's 30 minutes a day or starting with five minutes a day, I can't tell you how many times like I either get into my car and before I turn it on, I just sit with my eyes closed and take like breaths and just even remember that I'm in my own body before I go and spend like three hours picking up kids and taking them to dance or whatever, that those little practices can help us like a long this journey to create a little more balance.

Mia: yeah, I agree. You have to, because I read somewhere along my most recent health scare. Um, if you don't take care of your health now, you'll pay for it later. And that really was sort of one of those aha moments. Like I looked back on the previous year for me and realized I was not taking care of my health and I had a really stressful job at that time and an editor who was stressing me out beyond measure.

Mia: And so. I paid the price for that. And, you know, now I know, you know, take yourself, take care of yourself first, because then you'll be here longer to take care of others.

Christine: Yeah. Um, well thank you Mia so much for this beautiful conversation. I feel like we've hit so many topics that I, I know that again, that we have a lot of alignment in, in what we're thinking about and talking about. Um, before we end our conversation, um, I always have a few rapid fire questions, so we'll take like this deep emotional moment and we'll move into the lightheartedness.

Mia: bet.

Christine: The first is, what are you reading right now?

Mia: Oh, two weeks notice. It's about how to take control of your life and live the life you want.

Christine: Perfect. It sounds like it's perfect. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?

Mia: Um, I bring my own water bottles. So I'm a sustainable, uh, you know, aluminum water bottles. So I'm a sustainable travel in case I lose one. I have another one in my suitcase. Um, and I also bring my own cutlery in case people try to give me plastic silverware and things like that.

Christine: To sojourn means, um, to me, to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while, akin to slow travel. Uh, where would you still love to sojourn?

Mia: I would go back to Sicily. You know, and I, I know I said I was there this summer, but I was so at peace there, it's such a wonderful place in terms of the food and the lifestyle. So that I felt like I was sojourning there and I would do that every year for my personal wellness.

Christine: Thank you. What is something you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?

Mia: That's interesting. Um, I guess locally caught food. You know, I don't eat meat, but I do eat seafood now. Um, so I would say the locally caught fresh fish,

Christine: Who was a person that inspired you or encouraged you to set out and explore the world?

Mia: my mother, she, you know, took me on cross country trips in middle school, just her and I, um, she was. My parents divorced early and I thought she was so brave to just, we would hit the open road, leave our house in New York and go to all the parks, national parks in the Southwest. And she had a flat tire.

Mia: She fixed herself, you know, that kind of inspiration. Seeing a woman that, you know, at that point in life, travel on her own with a child, you know, set me off on the trajectory I followed.

Christine: Yeah, thank you. If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?

Mia: Always my son.

Christine: I love that. Um, well, as you know, Soul of Travel is a place for, um, celebrating women in the industry. Who is one woman that you would love to recognize in this space?

Mia: Oh gosh, there's, I would just point you to my lists. I can't. Women are doing amazing things and it's not fair to just pick one. I mean, it's not a, I just couldn't, there's so many good women out there doing great things, so.

Christine: Yeah. Thank you. I will make sure that I link those in the show notes. Cause I agree. There are so many great people to learn about. Um, and I really, really, really appreciate your heart and your attention to curating that list and to sharing all of the things that you've shared with us

Mia: You bet. It's been a pleasure. It was a fun conversation.

Christine: Thank you.