Allyship, Inclusivity, and Women in Tourism Leadership with Shayna Zand

In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Shayna Zand.

As WeTravel's Director of Partnerships & Enterprise Sales, Shayna Zand brings with her 12+ years in the tour operator space and working with various partners in the travel industry. She joined the team in May 2022 to build relationships with existing and new partners. She also is the Vice-Chair on the Board of Directors for Tourism Cares and is based in Toronto, Canada. She loves to travel and has had the pleasure of visiting 85+ countries.

Christine and Shayna discuss:

· Shayna’s transition from a tour leader to director and her roles in the travel industry
· How to increase the representation of women in travel leadership roles
· The role of WeTravel in supporting initiatives like Women in Travel CIC, mentorship programs, and allyship in the workplace
· Continuing commitments to sustainability, client growth, and educational resources
· Vulnerability in leadership

Join Christine for this soulful conversation with Shayna Zand. 

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To read our episode blog post, access a complete transcript, see full show notes, and find resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to the Soul of Travel Website. 

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Learn more about WeTravel.

Connect with Shayna on LinkedIn and Instagram!

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Shayna Zand (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.

Transcript

Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I am your host, Christine. Um, today I am really excited to be sitting down with Shana Zand, who is the director of partnerships and enterprise sales at WeTravel. And, uh, WeTravel is an organization that I have been I have really loved following the journey of your growth and kind of first started engaging with in 2020 during the pandemic.

Christine: And um, I have interviewed Carrie Pfeiffer and we talked a little bit about it then. Um, but I'm really excited to have you here today, um, to learn a little bit more about we travel, but to learn about your journey. And then, um, All of the other things that have kind of caught my eye along the way. So we'll start just by welcoming you first.

Christine: Um, and then I'd like to turn it over to you, Shayna, to introduce yourself to my listeners and tell them a little bit more about who you are.

Shayna: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for having me here. This is, this is really exciting. Um, you've had some incredible speakers, um, and, and some incredible women that I look up to. So it's so much fun to be here with you. Um, so yeah, my name is Shayna. Um, I, um, based in Toronto and Canada. Um, sadly I say go Leafs go, um, big hockey girl.

Shayna: Um, I, uh, I've worked in the travel industry for most of my career. Um, I also worked in accounting for a bit, very exciting stuff. Um, but I've been in the travel industry working with larger tour operators, working on the industry side of things. So, you know, with our incredible travel advisor partners, consortium and host agencies, uh, as well as other types of brand partnerships.

Shayna: And then. Most recently for the last two and a half years on the technology side of travel, um, which has been really interesting, really fun. Um, and learning just so much. Um, so I personally used to be a figure skater. I play a lot of volleyball. I love sports. Um, so yeah, that's just a little bit about me.

Christine: Oh, I love the, the figure skater tidbit because I didn't know that. That has never come up anywhere that I can recall hearing you speaking before. So that's always good to get that inside. track. My daughter is studying to be a ballerina right now. So I think I can understand a little bit of like that level of intensity and what that looks like.

Christine: That would be a fun sidebar conversation on another day. Um, well, I wanted to begin, you know, you, you kind of mentioned The path that you've had so far within the industry. And I feel like we have similar backgrounds and that we've touched a lot of different parts of travel. And, you know, for me, for instance, I worked, um, in an airline for an airline.

Christine: I've worked for a city. in a small town where I was like working at the chamber of commerce and the information center. And then I worked for a small expedition cruise company and a family owned in. So I've been in all these different parts. And I feel like because of that, I'm really conscious of the way that travel touches people and the impact it can have because I've been I've seen it from so many different perspectives and I'm really curious about for you what you've gained kind of with all those different touch points and how that influences how you show up today.

Shayna: I've, um, I've been really lucky. I grew up traveling a lot. My parents, I have a younger sister and my parents took us away every chance that they got every school break that we had any opportunity, we went away with the whole family. So like 25 of us at a time. So like my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, everyone.

Shayna: Um, And I grew up doing that and seeing that and seeing how that worked and how interesting it was and then how much fun we would all have together. So doing these big groups, but then just going away, just our family, the four, you know, my parents, my sister and I, um, and we still, to this day, um, I mean, I'm planning their 65th, uh, birthdays for next year.

Shayna: So, um, And seeing all of that. So they're the ones that got me in love with traveling so much so that, you know, if I'm going to work five days a week, um, for majority of my life, I want to do it in something that I already enjoy doing already, um, and learning more about it and helping people, you know, enjoy it as much as I do.

Shayna: When I initially got into the industry, I actually started as a tour leader. So I led the multi day tours. I specialized in Western Canada and the Rockies. So I led anywhere from 10 day trips to, I think the longest I did was a 25 day, um, which is a long time on a tour, but when you have a great group, I mean, there's nothing better.

Shayna: And what I loved about my journey and travel started Starting as a tour leader, then working on the sales team, like picking up the phones, answering the inbound calls, getting into becoming a BDM and, you know, going out to all the trade shows and events and then managing the BDM team and then taking on even larger partnerships, um, and contracting.

Shayna: What I loved about all of it was having worked in so many different areas. of the business itself, um, in the multi day kind of travel space. Um, so having experienced the operational side of things as a tour leader, frontline sales, um, working with our B2B partners, then getting into contracting, it was incredible to grow up in the industry and.

Shayna: To now have a knowledge base of how so many different departments and areas of the business ran. Whereas you're talking about, you know, you worked in airlines and then small expedition cruising, and that's incredible. Um, I really grew up in the multi day tour space. Um, but my experience is working in the various different departments, which, you know, gave me a really holistic view of how the whole business operates and a real appreciation.

Shayna: For every role, no matter whether you're entry level or you're running a department or you're the CEO, right? That how critical every role is and every department is to making the business succeed. So that was, that was really exciting for me. Um, and still growing and still doing that now.

Christine: Yeah. And I think that that perspective is, is really valuable and being able to kind of hang on to it as you progress, because then it makes you so much more relatable. And when you're, like you said, that holistic viewpoint really allows you just a different way to connect and, um, bring all of the pieces together.

Christine: And I, I think a lot of times, um, you'll find leadership that maybe hasn't had that winding path and it's harder for them to relate to and understand. How different parts and pieces work. And I often joke like some of my earliest roles in the industry. One, I was a fax girl for a company that was a travel agency.

Christine: And all I did back in the day was just like fax a hotel reservations for all the other agents. Horrible job. I'm so grateful that doesn't exist for anyone else as an entry level position today. But like, That perspective is, is helpful. And then another job I had, I worked in corporate and I collated just airline tickets for Microsoft and like bashed them to send to all the different buildings.

Christine: And both of those jobs were super grueling, but important in remembering what it was like to be there. And then also I learned a lot and, um, I would instinctively in companies start like And be like, Oh yeah, I can cover that role during their lunch, or I can cover that thing. And then I would learn that and then they would move me to this department.

Christine: But I would still remember like these pieces, right? And then I would get moved to another department. And then I would all of a sudden be like, Hey, I worked in a lot of temp jobs early as well. So I would do like a three month contract and be like, I noticed it's not really streamlined in your communication having sat back here printing tickets to out here.

Christine: And then I'd start writing these manuals about. You know, how to create ways that these, that these efficiency, basically looking at efficiency within the, in their businesses. And, um, again, I, I just feel like that perspective is helpful. And I also feel like the tourism industry is a really interesting one where if you're working in other industries, you might not have started out what was the equivalent of a tour guide and now be working in the position you are in today.

Christine: Like, It's a little bit more linear than that. So I think it's really creates an interesting environment, but also creates people that are working at higher levels that have different connection to the whole, the whole industry and all of the different components that happen.

Shayna: I think it was. Um, I mean, I love that. Um, I am so glad. I mean, granted, I feel like there are still some companies who fax things, but that could be a whole other conversation for a whole other podcast. Um, but I, for me, I, it was, it was a really great experience. I, I, when I went to university, when I was studying, I mean, I studied accounting.

Shayna: I actually came out of, I came out of school, um, and worked for a firm that specialized in cross border taxation. So like doing taxes in Canada, and I can actually do U. S. tax returns as well if anyone ever needs any support. I don't know what I remember from that time, but I'm sure there's something still up there.

Shayna: Um, and I spent A few months unemployed, um, because I wasn't enjoying what I was doing. Um, I'm so glad I have that tax background without question and that I can now look at like, you know, PNLs and I can look at statements and I can, Make decisions, strategic decisions based on that. I will never forget that time, but it wasn't something I was passionate about or something that I loved doing day in, day out.

Shayna: And I was, for me, it was, how do I even just get into this industry? And the tour leader position was the one that I could just get into. And I was really lucky with the company that I was at where during the off season, cause you can only in Canada guiding or tour leading you, you really, there's only four or five months of the year.

Shayna: Because a lot of the trips were camping style, which was fantastic. Um, and they were the ones who gave me the opportunity. We'll go work in the office during the off season. And learn that side of things. And so I was lucky to be able to do those things and take advantage of them. And I always said the reason I was really good at, when I was, when I was on the sales team or when I moved to become a BDM was because I was operationally on the road.

Shayna: And when there was a reason. You know, a lot of people wanted to know their tour leaders names beforehand, get in contact with them, be able to WhatsApp them, or message them for a month or two months out from the tour, and I could explain why that wasn't going to work or why that wouldn't be appropriate, right?

Shayna: Um, and I could do that because it was easy for me to just talk about it because I'd experienced it versus somebody training me on here are reasons why you can like, you know, here are the reasons why I just knew because I was, I had experienced that already. Um, I also as you know, I've been in management for many years now to know when I asked somebody on my team to do something and I know what that actually entails in the time that it takes and what actually has to get done in the amount of work.

Shayna: Um, you know, it was something I was always really nervous about was managing people. I was never nervous about the strategy or about doing my work, you know, I love what I do. And so I think that that drives you to do as good a job as you can possibly do. I was always worried about The people management side of it.

Shayna: And so having then done most of those roles myself was invaluable to me. Um, now having managed people for, you know, and I started, I think, managing people at when I was 28. So as young, I didn't know what I was doing. Um, but I, I rolled back onto that, um, in terms of, I know what you're doing. I know what you're going through.

Shayna: I've done it before. So let's talk through it together. So I loved being able to kind of grow up within the industry and still have more places to go, which is all the fun, right? So,

Christine: Yeah. And as you were saying that, too, I was just thinking about I was listening to some past conversations and was listening to Beth Santos talking about getting more people, more women from entry level positions into executive and C suite positions. And the lack of women that are in those roles and women tend to live in more in these entry level positions in the industry.

Christine: But just thinking about actually, With your journey and my journey, actually how vital it really is then to take women to that next level because they are carrying a lot of education about the different parts of the industry, and they can take that with them. And I think a lot of us, similar to what you were saying, might feel a little stuck about About that next level as you're transitioning because you might be thinking about those, those, some of the leadership requirements.

Christine: But I think the things that we carry with us are really important. And I don't know, this just popped into my head, but what your thought is on that of, of how, how valuable that makes women in elevating them to those higher positions.

Shayna: I think right now we see, I mean, our industry is what 70 plus percent women who work within the travel industry. And a lot of women sit in that kind of middle management, um, space. Um, and then when you start to look at the statistics of how many women are actually executive level or higher or C suite, it's.

Shayna: Um, with all due respect, it's quite grim. Um, and I know that, you know, we talk about it a lot. I'll be on a panel next week at WETM or when this airs in a couple weeks. I will have been on one already. Um, and, you know, and that's part of the conversation that we're having. I think, having had, So many of us women who have started, um, at entry level and have really grown up in the industry.

Shayna: We have that wonderful empathy and understanding for, you know, our staff as they are growing. And as this new incoming younger generation, um, you know, I'm a millennial myself and, um, the generation that's coming in and they want you to show them that care and that understanding. And when you've done their roles in the past, you inherently, um, you inherently already have that, which is wonderful.

Shayna: I think also in leadership roles, women and men and you identify, um, you will compliment each other because we all think differently. Um, in the way that, you know, when I look at some of the other teammates that I work with and how they manage versus how I manage, we learn a lot from each other. Because inherently we just think differently.

Shayna: Um, and that's wonderful growth, not only for ourselves, but then how we continue to grow and support our own staff. So having a mix of your executive, your C suite, the, the team that's leading your business at the top is only going to benefit not only your business, but all the people that work for you as well.

Shayna: So I, I think it's incredibly important. We have a lot of work to do on that front. Um, you know, I still sit at a director level role. Um, but, and I say, still it's, I'm very proud of it. Absolutely. Um, but I think a lot of companies in the travel space still have work to do. And I think. One of the best things that I'm seeing happening right now is the open, the open conversations around where we're not trying to hide it.

Shayna: We're actively talking about it. Um, and I think that that's a beautiful thing because that's something that if I look at when I started my journey, that absolutely wasn't happening. Right. So I think that steps are absolutely being taken in the right direction. Um, hopefully a little bit faster, but, um, we're getting there.

Shayna: Yeah. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, I agree. And I'm so glad that you brought up that panel, the power of allyship and creating inclusive workspace, because I wanted to talk to you about that. Um, I wanted to hear from you a little bit about why it's so important and then, you know, how allyship and inclusion really intersect and why this is an important

Shayna: So we've been, um, we've been supporting this incredible, um, uh, association, women in travel in the UK. Um, and they have a beautiful allyship program. Um, our company, we travel has been, we're going into our second year of being a corporate ally, um, in 2025. So that's really exciting for us. We've had. Uh, four or five of our management team, um, men on our management team be mentor, um, and mentor women working in the industry.

Shayna: Um, and one of the beautiful things that I have actually found is some of my, some of my team, some of the men that were, Um, mentors coming back and saying, saying that they felt like they've been mentored and that they've learned so much from the women that they were mentoring their mentees. So almost like this, um, you know, that term, that coin term of reverse mentorship.

Shayna: Um, so they found that they've learned a lot and that they've been able to expand and broaden their horizons, um, and it's been so incredibly helpful for them. And funny enough, um, one of them had actually come to me and said, he's like, I don't know what I have to offer. He's like, I don't know. And he, and I had never, he was, he's always been one of the staff.

Shayna: He's always been so sure of himself. Um, and he's incredibly good at what he does. Um, I have a lot of love and respect for him and him just coming to me. Um, so vulnerable to say, what do I have to teach? And I'm like, I said, just listen to what your mentee has to say. And I promise you, like you are in a, you are in a VP level role.

Shayna: I promise you have a lot to teach. And then, you know, he comes back to me later and says, wow, like I, you know, it was just, it was so interesting to him. So enlightening for him, um, for our business, it's been incredibly beautiful and important. We've had some of our clients. Participate as well as mentees as they're starting their businesses.

Shayna: Because yes, we work with large businesses. We also work with very small businesses. That's how we started as a company was actually catering to small and medium sized businesses. Um, and there's still a very, very core part of what we do as a company. Um, so it was great also to, you know, extend this to our clients as well.

Shayna: If this was something they were interested in. Um, I'm excited to dig more into it. Um, on on the panel. Um, But it's been beautiful both ways for both the mentees and the mentors. So it's been great.

Christine: Yeah. Um, and I think it's really interesting when you're looking at allyship and having conversations that are including men and women in shifting You know, making the changes we need to have, cause that's really the vital step. And I think Alessandra is so brilliant for creating this container for that to happen.

Christine: And, um, we just both met in Panama and I ran a session for women in the adventure travel trade association to kind of think, take, and talk about some of our experiences, what we need as a community of women. What kind of efforts we might like to stand behind and champion. And one of the women came up and said, you know, this was a great session.

Christine: It was my favorite session I attended, but I wish men were here too. And, um, I, you know, so we had quite a conversation about that, about how important it is. And like, I think both spaces need to exist in order to create the changes we want to create. But I really recognize the value in. In this program. Um, and as, as you mentioned, you know, you, uh, we travel have supported women and travel CIC and, um, Alessandra Alonzo, whose name I definitely want to bring into the conversation because she, I think is a true visionary in, in this regard.

Christine: Um, and as I mentioned, one of the things I really love most about travel is the ways that you show up in the industry that are not. directly related to your operations. Like when I first heard about you, I actually didn't know what you guys did because I was just seeing these incredible panels and education.

Christine: And then I would see you showing up, like supporting all these different initiatives related to sustainability and equity. And, and then I was like, Oh, that's what they do. I was so surprised because the way that you. Have taken up space. I feel is really beautiful. And like, for instance, you know, I mentioned women and travel also tourism cares where you're a board member, but also we travel is there.

Christine: I'm just curious to hear from you about why this is so important at we travel and also to you when you're investing your time and energy to support these 

Shayna: we travel, we're a global business, so we have, we have staff from 30 plus countries at this point and such an incredible, like I, I can't, I can't even for the people that work at WeTravel. It's just so incredible, um, that I get to work with these people every day. And honestly, the last company I was at to, you know, staff from, you know, over 50 different countries and the things that you get to learn, um, you know, during the pandemic.

Shayna: And I started working for WeTravel kind of at the middle of 2022. So kind of when things were starting to come back online and everything like that, I think looking at it glass half full, I think it gave every company a moment to pause and to say, okay, where do we, we're not in the day to day of our business right now.

Shayna: We actually almost have time to think, um, and decide, you know, what direction our company wants to go in and, you know, coming in, in, in 2022, um, and talking with the founders. And, you know, now the, you know, our, we have such an extended leadership team now and talking about one of the biggest, you know, we've got three main goals as a company.

Shayna: Goals is to help our clients grow, and there's so many different ways to do that, right? Yes, it's through our platform so it can streamline, um, and create efficiencies and effectiveness for them. And that's wonderful, right? And that's necessity to your business, right? Takes away all the things you don't enjoy doing, but the things you need to do to run your business and gives them time to build these incredible tours and these incredible experiences for their own clients, right?

Shayna: And that's what they want. That's what our company that our clients want to spend time doing. The next thing was taking a look at what matters to our clients, right? What's important to them? What do they want to learn about? What do they support? And, you know, what's important to our staff? Right. And how do we, you know, how do we support our own staff internally?

Shayna: How do we build that wonderful culture? Um, and to support our clients and our staff, it really became clear to us, you know, let's really openly talk about what's important in this industry. When we talk about supporting women in travel, right, we're a travel technology company, right? We are very, very heavily staffed by men.

Shayna: Um, we have an incredible amount of women in the business as well, but we're founded by three men who are fantastic. Um, and so being able to have that conversation and that support and supporting female run business, that was a no brainer to the company and having that very open conversation, you know, coming in as an already sitting board member.

Shayna: of tourism cares. Um, I'd already been on the board for two years by the time I came on to we travel. They were like, Shana, teach us. We want to learn more about what does tourism cares do, right? Because that's only one aspect of Sustainable travel, right? What is sustainability? And when you spoke with Carrie, that is that, you know, from Carrie from our company, she heads up our sustainability committee internally, the passion that she has and what she drives internally in our business is amazing.

Shayna: And we want to keep learning from. You know, those within our industry, different sustainable practices, which includes, you know, D I a, which includes, you know, how do we travel sustainable, sustainable, sustainably? How do we support local communities? Because that's also part of being sustainable. That's more of the tourism care side.

Shayna: Um, you know, and then how do we teach our clients to do that? Right. And that, that helps them grow and that helps them be better because when you put, you put purpose at the forefront of your business. It's going to drive, it's going to drive your revenue. It's going to drive your profit. It's going to drive all of that as well.

Shayna: It kind of comes together. Um, and so we wanted to make sure we're doing that. And then of course we have our entire learning and engagement platform, which is completely complimentary to anyone who wants to use it, whether you work with WeTravel or not, you know, And it was incredible the love that and the engagement that we got from the rest of the industry and the speakers that we've had.

Shayna: And we just, we just launched a course with Intrepid Travel about building product, right? How do you even start? What do you even do? We launched a course with Tourism Cares on Sustainability 101. Again, where do you even get started, right? Because we've got these niche operators coming up in the industry. This industry, one of the things I've always loved is we share our knowledge. Um, and we travel being a platform that so many in the industry use. Um, we have that, we have that database to speak to so many that it's so important to us to use that for good. Um, and educate them. If our platform is right for them, we know that they're going to work with us.

Shayna: Right. You know, and we're going to continue to develop and build our platform to ensure it's what our clients are looking for. But it's everything else that we're doing, um, that not only supports our clients or potential new ones. but that also shows love and supports this industry that we all love so much.

Shayna: So it kind of all comes full circle. I know. I think I just, um, gave you about a 15 minute answer, but I'm so passionate about it. I could talk about it for days. Um, I love how much we support different initiatives, um, that are important to us as a business, to our people. But then also are incredibly important.

Shayna: And what we want to continue educating our clients on that are part of this wonderful industry.

Christine: I love it so much. Also, that's why I have an hour long podcast because I also, when I get impassioned, I want to have space for that because I mean, truly that to me is what soul of travel means, right? That's the thing that gets us in the office every day. That's the thing that gets us excited when we're moving through the world.

Christine: That's what I wanted to really bring to life. Like we're not doing this because we want to sell trips or, you know, land clients there, there's something else here. And all of the people that I'm really connected with quickly. I saw how important. Really and truly important. This work is to them again beyond travel.

Christine: It's always been beyond travel. And for me, my background wasn't sociology and in working with looking at the ways that social impact can intersect with travel. And so I've always asked, like, Well, you know what else could travel do? What else could travel do? And I I think that's why I was so drawn initially to we travel.

Christine: Like I mentioned, um, I connected with Carrie Pfeiffer. She was on season three. So anyone who now we've teased in a million times, you can go back to episode 73 and hear from her. Her roles have changed, but it's still a great conversation. Um, but that, that value that you were adding outside of what was needed, what you would need to do to run your business.

Christine: I was so impressed. And then the way that. They were gathering community at that time and then creating space for conversations that were difficult. Like all those things, I was just like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Like I just, I was so excited so I can relate to what that does. But, but I also think it's so fulfilling as an employee or someone to work in that space because even if you're momentarily caught in the mundane of spreadsheets and whatever, you, you still know

Christine: you're touching these things that are

Christine: important to you as a 

Shayna: when you're doing something like for us, when we are, you know, supporting, whether it's the event, whether it's the association, whether it's just the work that is being done within this industry and sharing that knowledge, and then we see our clients doing that as well, profits going to come to you, people are going to come to you.

Shayna: And again, I think I brought this up earlier, but you're talking about it. These younger generations that, you know, travel and experiences are at the forefront of what's important to them and where they want to spend the money they have, or even the money they don't have, because that is what they want.

Shayna: They want these experiences. These, these generations care about the brand. They care about the brand that they're traveling with. They care about who they're supporting, what they're supporting, how they're supporting it. Um, and like I said, we've got this platform that. You know, if we can, if we can even help educate, if we can even help share, we can put those in our industry that are at the forefront of of all of these incredible topics of conversation of learnings that we want.

Shayna: you know, to share. We have the ability to do that. Um, you know, we travel has positioned itself where we do, and that is a beautiful thing. And we're using that on. We're using that properly were, you know, we're having all these incredible way. You know, we just we just had our summit, our three day summit.

Shayna: We have Our webinars. We have we have our entire what we call our academy. We are physically at a lot of these events as well. Um, I believe one of our founders and, um, one of our account executives just got back from I. G. L. T. A. S. Annual conference in Japan where an incredible amount of our clients attend that as well.

Shayna: Um, but not only are we helping our clients learn and, in turn. They're going to see their client base continue to grow because of what they're learning and then what they're sharing and then what they're integrating and implementing into their own trips. Um, but then, you know, our founders, our team come back from these events and share what they've learned with our staff internally.

Shayna: That our staff can take with them wherever they go in the future. Um, it's yeah, it's, it's, it's a really beautiful thing, especially I think now being on the tech side of things where we don't necessarily think about that. Um, I love that our company has prioritized that, um, and allowed me to even be a small part of it.

Christine: Yeah. Um, I, I won't keep belaboring it. Obviously I have said how much I'm a fan, but I just think it's such a good example of what we can do. Like people all the time say, how can businesses do both? And, and I just think you can, and, and you just look at what you really want to do. And I know for myself, I actually was just having this conversation the other day, and I'm like, it turns out education is really important to me, which should be obvious having done this podcast for four years.

Christine: But I was like, Oh, it really is. a way of, of, of creating an educational resource and inspiring people to look at what they're doing in their own businesses and in their own lives and how they can put that into place. And I think, yeah, it's just, it's just great to get outside of the box and get creative with what else you can do in your business.

Christine: that is aligned and supports what you're doing, but is also really impactful. So, um, the next thing that I wanted to talk to you is kind of shifting gears a little bit, but when we were in Panama, which I was so glad to get to see you there, it was fun because we were having an impossible time trying to get together to pre plan for this conversation.

Christine: And then we're like, Oh, well, we'll both be there, which we should know better because you're, you know, you're not like ever standing still. Um, but we had a moment where we caught up with each other. And I asked you if there was anything that you would love to share with my listeners. Um, you know, in this space that maybe you don't always talk about, and we ended up kind of landing on the idea of this.

Christine: Reoccurring kind of inner dialogue of feeling nervous or unsure, unsteady as we prepare for events. Um, and I admitted to you that even like, as I was walking up to you, I was having that conversation of like, Oh my gosh, I'm talking to Shane as Anna, we travel. And I'm not sure that I should go over there right now.

Christine: And you know, it's just this, I think many of us have this and. As I was thinking about it today, I actually have a funny kind of a funny share about how I get through it and I have like these three touch points. If I'm, I'm preparing for an event and I'm trying to like get myself out of that headspace and one is I, Went to a women's event when I launched my, um, my women's travel company.

Christine: Actually, it was on International Women's Day in 2019. Um, and Cheryl Strayed was speaking who I adore and she walks out and I'm just like having my moment of like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe she's right there. And she had her notes on her cell phone. And it was like this acrylic podium and her flashlight on her camera was stuck on.

Christine: So it was like shining through the acrylic podium and someone like raised their hand and they're like, um, Ms. Straight, your light's on. And she's like pushing all the buttons and she's like, I can't figure it out. Is it really bothering anyone? I'm just going to leave it that way. And I was like, yeah. Okay, she totally just made it through that without that bothering her at all, and that was incredible and then at the same conference, um, Glendon Doyle was speaking, and I ended up in the elevator with her, and there was a time change, but we were in Arizona, so there's no time change, and both of us were like, Do you know what time it is?

Christine: She's like, I don't even know what state I'm in, but I know that I don't know what time it is. And then like, I saw her run out on the stage a couple minutes later and she just was like grounded in, in her bare feet. And then like the last one I want to share is with Brene Brown is the one that I find myself most tapping into because she talks about before she did her famous Ted talk, how nervous she was.

Christine: And she acknowledges today that she is still nervous and that like, She was going to speak at this one event and she said it was for a C suite and she's like, I don't know why but in that moment I didn't realize they meant C suite and I looked out and there's all these people in suits and I turned to the organizer and she was like, who am I speaking to?

Christine: And she's like, you know, this is C suite executives. You're talking to them about shame. And she's like, I don't know why, but I thought C suite or C, I don't even think they said C suite, but she's like, I thought it meant like C level is I think what they said to her, not C suite. And she's like, I thought it meant like really down to earth, salt of the earth type people.

Christine: And I wasn't mentally prepared for this. And she's like, It's a backtrack. And he's like, tell them that when you go out on stage. And then she's like, I peeked around the curtain. I saw someone I knew from university or something. And that a woman came up to say, I saw you're the speaker. I just wanted to quickly tell you, I'm so excited to hear from you.

Christine: And she was like a neighbor. And she's like, what I realized is that These are people. And the same thing, I like, as I nervously approached you and many of my guests who I admire, I'm like, every time I get done with these conversations, I think that is an amazing person. And so I'm wondering from you going back to that, like our conversation, that inner dialogue, how do you navigate it?

Christine: And what do you think it would look like if

Shayna: Yeah, I think I'm gonna start with every time 

Christine: us have that 

Shayna: whether it's on this podcast, whether it is in an interview, whether it is in a, in a closed meeting with just some staff, I get nervous every time I speak. Every single time. And I'm a talker, um, I constantly have to remind myself of, I think it's a saying I heard in the movie, Ocean's Eleven, don't use seven words when four will do.

Shayna: Um, because I tend to over explain sometimes. Um, I've been speaking on behalf of You know, like I used to do trainings, um, all the time for travel agencies. And so I was doing that, you know, in my mid twenties, I have for years been speaking either on stage, hosting presentations, speaking on panels or, um, moderating panels.

Shayna: for multiple years. There is not a single time that I don't get nervous. And my nervousness is my heart beating out of my chest. I can literally feel my heart beating out of my chest. And like I forgot to put on deodorant that day because everything is slipping and sliding. Um, that is how I feel every single time.

Shayna: The moment I sit down and say my first few words, All of a sudden, it's like I just put deodorant on on stage. Um, and I start to relax and it's every single time. And so I always wonder why I get nervous. And I think I get nervous because I care. I care about what I'm going to say. I care about who I'm speaking to.

Shayna: I care about wanting this to be a really good use of their time. Time is probably one of our, if not our most valuable asset. And I want it to be beneficial to the people that I'm speaking to. And I want to feel like, you know, that I'm getting something out of it as well, spending my time doing this. Um, even in a meeting, um, you know, we did a leadership training a couple of months ago and every time I raise my virtual hand to speak, my heart would beat out of my chest.

Shayna: And I'm sitting right here in this chair that I'm in with my colleagues who I feel incredibly comfortable around. Um And I'm getting nervous to say something, whether I'm agreeing with them, whether I'm challenging them, no matter what it is, I am getting nervous, um, to say something, and I also tend to go really red, so my entire face just turns red, like it's like a whole, like it's like a tomato, um, so you can see it, I can't hide it.

Shayna: Um, I would just say, just embrace it. Uh, there's really, for me, there's nothing I can do about it. I'm going to get nervous. And all I can say to myself is this is normal. This is, you know, I'm always going to feel this way, but when I get up on stage or when I get in front of a group of people, it just seems to go away.

Shayna: And even if it doesn't, that's okay. I think we had, um, at, at the adventure travel world summit in Panama that we were just at, I was, I hosted, um, an hour and a half And I was in a half round table session about technology, right? And while I've been working for a tech company for the last couple years, my specialty is in tour, travel tour industry.

Shayna: Um, so I'm like, okay, so I'm going to go teach people about tech. Right. And it's not, it's not, not there to teach them about we travel, but it is to teach them about efficiencies within your business as a whole and technology as a whole. And I was shaking. And I'm like, why am I do like, why, why was I asked to do this?

Shayna: I don't understand. I asked a couple of my colleagues that were there with me to come and join me. And I said, could I give you guys a few questions to. you know, ask the audience and then feel the answers and give your feedback. And they were like, no, like one of them said, yeah, you know, maybe the other one was so nervous.

Shayna: And she was like, I've never done this before. And I said, well, yeah, at some point I had never done this before. I'm like, I've prepared all of your questions for you. I am here the entire time. And I said to her and I said, just so you know, I'm going to be just as nervous as you before this entire thing starts.

Shayna: And that was shocking to her. Because I've done this so many times and I said to her, it just doesn't go away and that's okay. And I've learned to, you know, that I'm just used to it. Um, at WTM, I'm speaking on a panel on the first day we're co hosting with the adventure travel trade association and event.

Shayna: Um, and we also are going to, like, I will go up on stage again on the second day. I will shake uncontrollably and turn red like a tomato before both of those. I already know it. I'm just, I'm ready for it. So yeah, before we got on this, when you said, let's, you know, are you ready to record? And I'm, I'm literally sitting here, my legs shaking.

Shayna: You can't see them because they're hidden. Um, it's just a normal, I've just come to think of it as, well, this is what it is and I'm just going to own it. Yeah. I

Christine: Yeah, I love it. And I love it so much. And I also love it because I always kind of engage with the cool exterior that I end up seeing when you speak on a panel, right? And so the, the, the version of you that I had painted in my head before I met was like, I should be nervous because she's always so assured and so confident and Bye. Um, I love those moments of kind of myth busting, I guess, and getting back to the realness of things. And I do think it's important. I love that you shared that with your colleagues because that's how I think that's another way that we support one another is by letting them know that that doesn't happen.

Christine: devalue your expertise or your role or your position or your authority that you can be nervous and still be an authority. Like we can't overcome the human part of ourselves. And I also can strongly relate to all of the examples you gave, but it would be funny if anyone wants to go back and look at the YouTubes of my first conversations.

Christine: Um, I, at that time was always wearing like foundation or something. but my chest will be just like flaming red because I do the same thing. I'm like, what is even happening? Even if I actually didn't feel nervous, I would notice that that would happen. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, this is ridiculous. And the same as you just kind of having to take a moment and be like, this is just how it's going to be.

Christine: So let's not even deal with it. And then the other thing that I love that you said that also Bernie said is that it was an indicator that this means a lot and that I'm acknowledging time is important and I'm taking some of yours. So I think all of those things are people are things that people listening can take away.

Christine: Transcribed Um, kind of understanding that it as leaders. So let me back that up. Another thing I think is like as women in leadership roles, I think we really feel like we need to show up better to prove that we deserve to be there. And so that's why I think that like red chest or wobbly legs or my voice sometimes will take a moment before it steadies no matter what like even if I'm feeling great I'm like here we are with that voice that's wavering then we feel crippled by that like human part of ourselves because it's more vulnerable as a woman.

Christine: And I don't know if maybe that's changing, but it still feels really true to me. Um, how do you think we can support kind of like you did other women in just kind of navigating some of those challenges and recognizing that we don't have to dismiss our human parts

Christine: to become leaders. Like those two things 

Shayna: a much better leader. I'm, um, a very, very open book, um, to the point of oversharing. I think my team would probably tell you that. Um, I'm a very, I, I'm very much so. I kind of just say it as it is, how I'm feeling in that moment or what's happening or. you know, that I get incredibly nervous still every single time I speak, or I'm nervous to submit this proposal, or, you know, I'm not sure about this, or I need to take today off because I am just not feeling well.

Shayna: And it's not physically not feeling well. I'm just, I'm having an off day. I very openly tell my team those things, because for me, if they feel like they're in a safe space, They're going to hopefully push themselves a little bit further, but then also feel like they can be as open with me and honest with me.

Shayna: And then that turns into them being, doing smart work, being more efficient and effective at work as well. And then them feeling good about themselves because they feel like and they know that they're contributing. at work as well. So I've always been an open book. I think, and I lead my, my entire team, everyone that reports into me right now are all women.

Shayna: Um, and they're incredible. And But I'm, I'm just very real about everything because then I know that they can trust me because they know that they're getting exactly how I'm feeling in that moment or what I'm thinking in that moment. Um, but then they know that they can express that as well. Um, and they can feel that comfort level at work.

Shayna: So I just, yeah, for better or for worse, I'm just a very, very. Um, you know, I've taken a lot of work to get to where I am. I've received some beautiful advice. I've received some not great advice either. Um, and I'm very lucky both ways because I think, um, Um, when you see, or I've had management where, you know, has not like years and years ago where, you know, it wasn't for me.

Shayna: Um, but I learned so much from seeing that and saying, okay, I'll never do that. That would never, you know, and I had to see that some, like, sometimes you have to see that to realize that those are things you're never going to do. Um, but yeah, I am just, I am just 100 percent me, whatever I'm feeling in that moment.

Shayna: I just say it. Um, and I, I find it makes my team just feel a lot more comfortable at the end of the day. So that's usually the way that I approach it. I love Brene Brown. I think I have like three of her books sitting on my shelf back there. Um, she just, she, for me, it's just, it's calming. It's very real.

Shayna: It's honest. It's open. Um, so I, I love that style. Um, and yeah, that's it. Yeah, I know that sounds simple, but yeah.

Christine: Yeah. No, I think it's so great. And I think the simpleness of it is why it's important because I think we've spent a lot of time. Not, not leading that way, and not setting those examples, and, and being worried about that facade, and like, I envisioned myself 20 years ago in my job in uncomfortable shoes and a suit, and like, trying to be who I thought I needed to be to be where I was, and wasting a lot of energy doing that, and like you said, if you can just show up as you, you're already like, ahead of the game and you're doing, you're doing what you're set out to be there.

Christine: You're probably doing what they hired you to do because you're being you. And so I think, I think it's important. So I love that. Um, well, before we end our conversation, Shana, I have a few 

Shayna: Oh, um, 

Christine: So we'll jump into those. Uh, 

Christine: the first is what are you 

Shayna: it's called The Exit Interview. I'm forgetting the name of it. It's a big pink book, and it's about somebody who worked for Amazon for a while and her kind of life story through working for Amazon and why she left. So super intriguing. Candies.

Christine: Yeah. Uh, what is always in your suitcase

Shayna: Angry? Angry Shayna is nobody's favorite Shayna. Oh no. Oh

Christine: Oh, I love that answer the most.

Shayna: no.

Christine: Um, I'm a

Shayna: Blasters all the way.

Christine: when I travel. I don't know why, but that's my favorite. You're like, no, that's no good. Um, to sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you've lived there for a short while. Where is one

Shayna: to, I would actually love to experience more of France. I have so many friends that are from France. I've been to Paris and that's it. So I'd love to experience, experience more of France.

Shayna: Sushi.

Christine: Yeah. Um, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been? Um, I have never been anywhere where that, is probably what it's meant to be. So I would love that experience. Um, who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out to travel the world? Um, and the last question, um, which I'm sure you're familiar with, but who is one woman in the industry you admire and would

Shayna: Oh, my goodness.

Christine: space? This is going to be so

Shayna: I look at it as I've been so incredibly

Christine: one or two.

Shayna: so many, um, incredible, uh, incredible women in my life. Okay. I will, who, um, um, I probably named two. So the first one is, um, Malia. She is the director of Jordan tourism. Uh, here in North America. She is the chair. She's the chairman of the board of tourism cares. She, Is a big reason why I'm on the board. Um, and I get to look up to her every day and learn from her, not only as a vice chair, but just as a friend, as a colleague in the industry and just watching the, seeing the beautiful relationships she has with so much of the industry and how much, um, and how much she has supported me and introduced me to so many wonderful people that she.

Shayna: established relationships with on her own. Um, yeah, she's, um, she's pretty incredible. Um, so that would definitely be one. And, um, I've got, um, I've got my colleague, um, and one of my closest friends, uh, her name is Casey McGurk. Um, so she works at WeTravel as well. Um, she's the head of, uh, PR and marketing, and she's probably one of the smartest women I know.

Shayna: Um, and I've just been lucky to grow up with her in the industry. You know, we kind of grew up side by side at our last company as well. And the way that we bounce ideas off of each other, that we support each other, we go to each other for so much. Um, And that we're so honest and real with each other as well.

Shayna: Um, I can't wait to see the incredible things that she does, but I wouldn't be where I am without her either. Um, just quick shout out to Yvette Thompson works for Intrepid Travel in Australia. She's been my mentor for the last six or seven years now. Um, from a leadership perspective, I wouldn't be anywhere without her. I could name like 10 other people.

Christine: Yeah. Thank you for mentioning. I know. If anyone asked me that question, I would just, I would, I could never answer, but I love that you mentioned, um, Malia as for, um, she was in, I think the first season of my podcast and I had a moment with, you know, speaking with her that, you know, 20 some years ago, she was one of the first women that I met in the industry who were.

Christine: in a leadership position. And, um, really for one told me like it's possible. And for two, everything you said, like, she's so inspiring and watching her for this 20 years, like I continually am just in awe. And so I really appreciate that. And I also have an email tab open to Casey. That's probably been open for like six months because I, I was in some session with her and I was like, I need to email her because I really want to connect.

Christine: So this is a good reminder of, of doing that. Um, but I really appreciate this conversation. Like I said, I have been waiting a really long time to get to meet you 

Shayna: you for having me. This 

Christine: um, definitely didn't let me down. So I 

Shayna: time. You're amazing. 

Christine: you took this time to

Christine: be with me 

Shayna: for me.

Christine: Thank you. I appreciate it.