Story-Inspired Journeys and Deep Connections through Travel with Jalisa Whitley

In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Jalisa Whitley.

Jalisa creates the containers and processes that bring people together to connect, collaborate, imagine, and create the places, spaces, and structures that will get us free. The current iteration of that work is as Founder of BOOKED Trips, a travel company that connects curious and community-minded women through book-inspired experiences. She believes that books create bridges across differences and offer a platform for talking about ideas and issues that bind us. Through her work, she uses tourism as a tool for connection and leverages her work to invest in and tell the authentic stories of Black and brown communities around the world. She is passionate about connecting communities to opportunities to elevate their impact, co-create solutions, and implement sustainable change and has done this work through her company Unbound Impact. In her spare time, she enjoys reading, traveling, and engaging with music, theater, and the arts.

Christine and Jalisa discuss:

· BOOKED Trips and how unique travel experiences bring stories to life while fostering deep connections
· The importance of understanding a place in the context of its cultural, historical, and political significance
· The wmnsWORK program and community, especially in addressing the personal challenges of entrepreneurship
· Creating intentional partnerships with local entrepreneurs and communities

Join Christine for this soulful conversation with Jalisa Whitley. 

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To read our episode blog post, access a complete transcript, see full show notes, and find resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to the Soul of Travel Website. 

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Looking for ways to be a part of the Lotus Sojourns community? Learn more here!

Find Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community for like-hearted women. Find solo travel trips for women over 50 on JourneyWoman.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Jalisa Whitley (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Edi

Transcript

Christine: Welcome to soul travel podcast today. I'm really excited to be sitting down with a women's work alum. Um, I know a bit about her business, but this is going to be a great opportunity for me to learn more and share more. So I'm so excited to welcome to Lisa Whitley to the podcast. Um, welcome.

Jalisa: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited about this conversation and to delve into the areas of synergy we have. So the women's work connection. I know you also love books and do the soulful book sojourn. So just really excited to talk. Sure.

Christine: Yeah, thank you. Me too. I, when I saw your company at first, I was like, is there anything better than books and travel and travel based on books, like living a book? I'm like, this is the most brilliant concept ever. Um, but before we get too far, Julissa, I want to just turn it over to you and give you the opportunity to introduce yourself to our listeners and give them a little bit more of an overview of BookTrips.

Jalisa: So my name is Jaleesa Whitley and I'm the founder of Booked Trips. And so Booked Trips is for women who crave meaningful book inspired journeys. So we're, um, I like to say we're an immersive small group travel company that connects curious and community minded women who want more than just a vacation.

Jalisa: So unlike traditional travel companies, we offer one of a kind experiences that bring stories to life. So we build deep connections, unforgettable experiences and a sense of belonging in the place we explore by helping people go from the pages of some of our favorite books to the places that they're set in.

Christine: Awesome. Um, I know this is going to be, for my listeners, one of those fangirl sessions, so just be prepared. It's fine. It

Jalisa: I love book people.

Christine: What's

Jalisa: said I love book people. Those are my people. So happy to mutually fangirl.

Christine: Yeah. I, if my office wasn't atrocious, it would be really fun to be able to turn my computer because you would truly know I have an entire wall of books like Beauty and the Beast style in my

Jalisa: Oh my god, I love that. I've always wanted the like ladder that goes across.

Christine: Yeah, I have no ladder yet, but I probably could put one in. I don't really need it, but it would feel cool. Um, okay. So before we learn about where you are, I'd love to take it back a little bit and get a better understanding of your relationship with travel. Um, did you travel when you were younger? Did you, was this something that you knew you were interested in or how did you find travel?

Jalisa: I did not travel much when I was younger. So I grew up in Geneva, New York. It's a very small town in upstate New York. And we would take road trips to Virginia to see my oldest sister. Um, and we would stay in motels along the way. And we'd be in like the family van, we would pack the like red cooler in the back with like our snacks.

Jalisa: And to me, That was so amazing. Like I was such an imaginative, imaginative kid. So I'd be like, Oh, I have a rich uncle that owns all these hotels. Cause. All I had seen was motels. So I thought they were the most luxurious thing ever. It's like, I have a rich uncle that owns all these motels and he loves to like, have me come.

Jalisa: So I just had this whole vision of like this journey in my head. But, um, I just love the experience of sleeping somewhere new and experiencing a different place as a kid. So that has like transitioned into me being a hotel girly now. Like I love a great hotel. But most of my, um, traveling when I was younger was through books.

Jalisa: So I read Harry Potter series growing up. So I imagined myself in like London and England. Um, I, uh, would like, listen to music, like the Lion King. I remember in fifth grade, we did get to travel to Toronto, Canada, which is closer to us than New York city is. So it was just like a straight shot up and we got to see the Lion King, uh, Live as a musical.

Jalisa: And I remember that experience being like, okay, this is what happens when you leave home. Like the world is so big and huge and wanting to have that experience. But the first time I really got to travel was an undergrad. I studied abroad in Hungary and Romania. I studied race and ethnic relations, um, for the Roma population, which is a nomadic population in that area.

Jalisa: Um, so that was my first real abroad experience.

Christine: Yeah, that's amazing. I, I love how kids travel. Like that's one of my favorite things about traveling with my kids is because they like find that grander. And I even remember one of my daughters being like, hotel's nice, but the ones where you like park outside and all the doors are on the outside are super fun.

Christine: And I was like, well, that's so funny that, you know, just, the way you see things and imagine things and, um, create stories in your mind, which I was like you that my mind is constantly like just creating a story. So it didn't really matter where I was or what I was doing. I was able to make magic happen, I guess.

Christine: Um, and similarly, like books were my escape. I grew up in a small town and just, Reading about all of these characters in these places, you're like, well, I know the world has to be bigger than where I am because We couldn't have come up with all of these stories if everyone lived in this little town like I do.

Jalisa: definitely. Definitely. Really. So I grew up in a religious family. So we were Pentecostal and, um, our church was right across the street from the public library and we would go to church. Monday, Thursday, and twice on Sunday. But Monday nights, I could get out of going if I went to the library. So that was my like little escape, both from like being in church all of the time, and like my escape from this small town where I was like, Oh, there's all these little girls that have lives that are so different than me, and I can't wait to be an adult and get to experience them.

Christine: Yeah. Um, so you mentioned that you studied abroad in college. Uh, how do you think that began to shape your relationship with travel and the experiences that you offer now?

Jalisa: I think that being my first real experience really traveling, Made, um, the intersection of learning and traveling very fundamental to me. So for me, traveling, wasn't just about going to a place just for the sake of going, but it was about learning about the history of a place, the culture of a place, like how, what are all the things that led up to this moment that.

Jalisa: is grounding my experience. So I think that very much informs the type of travel that we do with book trips. It's not only about the story that we're reading together, but also the story of the place that we're visiting through the eyes of the local people that are our guides, that are the artisans that we're working with, our restaurant owners, our drivers.

Jalisa: Like, how do you situate a place as not just an Instagram backdrop, but But somewhere that has a political, a cultural history that you're diving into.

Christine: Yeah, I feel like that's so important. And I was thinking, um, as you were talking, a lot of times I say that travel to me feels like kind of unwrapping the story of a place. You know, like you're, you're almost like turning the page as you walk through, right? I probably just see it that way because of that relationship I have, but it really, it, to me, it has always created a relationship where I think that the place, and this maybe will sound weird out of context, but that the place exists and I'm traveling there.

Christine: Whereas I think a lot of people think We were just talking about this. Actually, I was just at a conference, um, and Beth Santos brought up the idea of place versus destination. And to me, the, the, the difference between that is that like a destination feels like something to be consumed and like it maybe only exists for us to be there, um, and to meet our needs versus, um, A place exists, whether we're there or not, and we are we're becoming a part of it for a moment.

Christine: But it doesn't exist simply for the travel experience to happen. And so I feel like kind of the way you're talking about it. It's the same thing, right? Like, it's a privilege to be there. And the more context you have about all of the different elements of place. The more you can connect to it and understand it.

Jalisa: Yeah, I totally agree. And I love that juxtaposition between a place and a destination because I think there's the type of travel which isn't good, bad or otherwise, but that's like checking off the bucket list. Like, I've always wanted to do Machu Picchu or the Great Wall of China or whatever these things.

Jalisa: Yeah. Yeah. big experiences are that are amazing to have. But then the, the place orientation is more of leaving room for surprise and delight and to be challenged. And for your experience and itinerary to change based on, I met someone, we had a great conversation and I want to stay at this dinner longer and I don't want to feel like I have this other thing I need to rush off to.

Jalisa: Or they. Recommended this restaurant. I had never heard of in my life, and I want to have the flexibility to do that. So I think interacting with travel as an experience that's actively unfolding in a mutually, um, adaptable relationship, I think, um, is what I the aim is for me, for it to, for it to be a story that's, that we're writing in the moment.

Christine: Mm hmm. Yeah. Oh, so good. Okay. So then if your travelers are already kind of connected because of it, of a experience they had with the book, you provide additional like modern context or in the education prior to them traveling or have conversations before you travel outside of the book.

Jalisa: So most of the, um, the context setting happens on the ground. So what the process looks like is three to four months before the trip, our travelers receive a booked box that has our selected trip read, curated items from local artisans that connect to either the book or the place that we're going to, and then a playlist with sounds of the city.

Jalisa: So local artists and music from historical to the present to kind of ground you in that piece of it. And then 30 days before the trip, we have a traveler information session where they meet our on the ground partners who do do a little bit of context setting of like, here are the norms, here are Um, some things to be aware of when you're on the ground and like how we do travel and how we engage with communities as partners.

Jalisa: Um, but a lot of it is, it happens on the ground. So our first day of every trip is our opening dinner and book discussion. where we have a dinner that's inspired by local cuisine of the place, um, we have a discussion of the book and really delve a little bit deeper, and then every day thereafter on the trip is inspired by a quote from the book, and so it's what cultural experience directly connects to that quote and gives you a deeper sense of the place that we're in.

Christine: I just want to geek out so bad right now that I just love it so much, like, I, I really, really have to take a trip. I keep stocking your itineraries to figure out which one is going to work in my schedule, but it's like, Oh, it's the best idea for people who love books. Truly. I'm sure they're going to listen to this and they're going to be looning in the same way because the thing about a book is you're always kind of imagining yourself in it anyway, right?

Christine: And like the idea that you actually

Jalisa: lens in

Christine: could do that is kind of mind boggling to me. Um, uh, what the other thing that I wanted to ask you out before we kind of get more into this aspect is I know you studied, you mentioned from public policy and sociology, so I wonder, too, if that. shapes your relationship with travel and how you want travelers to kind of move through the world.

Jalisa: The types of books I select and the itineraries that I built. Um, so I would say. Earlier this year, in April, we went to Cape Town, South Africa, um, and we're gonna go again next year to Johannesburg in Cape Town, South Africa, and that book is Trevor Noah's Born a Crime. Everybody knows Trevor Noah from The Daily Show and is really excited about that, but what I love about that book is it sets a historical context for apartheid and what that looks like as a mixed race or colored individual, like what were the political implications of moving through the world that way, and I think that's an important context.

Jalisa: Thanks. For someone traveling to South Africa. Our first trip there, we read Intruders by Mohali Mashigo. So she's a local South African writer. And she really talks about what is it like to feel like an intruder in your own country. So even though black South Africans are the majority of the population, um, they're the overwhelming minority in terms of ownership of land, of businesses.

Jalisa: And so really want, I have a political point of view, um, in terms of, like, what are the kind of stories that you might not hear about a place. That I want to uplift in, in the type of work that I do.

Christine: Yeah, that really resonates with me. I also have a degree in sociology. So that lens is something that I think I inherently look at. And when I traveled early, Before I got that degree and then like gaining that knowledge later and looking back, I can kind of remember traveling and being in situations where I was thinking, this feels uncomfortable or this feels just yucky is the word that comes to mind.

Christine: But like, I really didn't have language for it because there wasn't language. But after I studied and you know, as I've learned more, like I would realize what I was. Sensing are those stories that you're mentioning, or power dynamics, or something feeling kind of extractive and consumptive. And I felt like I didn't want to be a part of it, but it looked like that's what travel was.

Christine: And so then I wasn't sure how to do it different, but I just knew it was something was off. And then, like I said, as I studied sociology, and then as I studied, um, sustainable destination management, and then like the conversations we've had since 2020 really have provided a lot more Uh, clarity and depth and nuance, like all these things began to understand like what Yaki was, you know, in that, that initial, just like that instinct.

Christine: And so those conversations I think can be really hard to have without having a way to examine them. So I love that these books allow you to kind of Maybe even see a perspective that's not yours, but are truly related to the experience in that place and to just start to be able to have a relationship with that experience.

Christine: I think it's really important and I think a really overlooked piece of travel for many people because they're staying pretty surface wherever they are. And this depth, I think it's super, super powerful.

Jalisa: Thank you so much. And, um, when you were talking about that yucky feeling, I could relate to that a lot. So in my professional life before this, um, I've worked in nonprofits and philanthropy for, um, nearly 15 years. And so I think that also informs. the community focus of my work. So I've worked in racial justice, um, specifically in health equity, um, housing and education have been my focus areas throughout my career.

Jalisa: And so really thinking intentionally about how can we use our tourism dollars as an economic driver and being really intentional about our choices. Because sometimes I think these political or policy questions can feel overwhelming to people when they're like, how can I understand the whole context of a place that I've just come to.

Jalisa: But I can be intentional about who I pick to be my drivers, um, what restaurants I go to, what kinds of experiences that I'm having, what kind of hotels I'm choosing. Like those are actual individual choices that feel like more within reach for people.

Christine: Mhm. When you do that, I'm I assume you'd be like me, like you'll build that in to the trip as you're creating it. And so you know what's happening behind the scenes. How much of that is conveyed to your travelers and how much do they understand those choices that you've made and and how that is shaping their experience?

Jalisa: Yeah, so we make that explicit, um, on our website and then on our trip interest form. So every trip people fill out a trip interest form before they put their deposit just to make sure there's alignment and they understand what kind of trip they're signing up for and that we're, um, Really curating a group that has differing perspectives, but can compliment one another.

Jalisa: And so we have four pillars to all our trips that, um, travelers are told about before arrival, which is first travel solo, but never alone. So we combine the freedom of solo travel and the joy of being part of a group of like minded women. Um, then. Find your community. So we really focus on what are the relationships that we're building and how are we?

Jalisa: That's why our trips are maxed out at 12 people. Like every experience is at the size of conversation and connection. So knowing that that's intentionally built in and then supporting local entrepreneurs. So we prioritize partnerships with black, brown, and indigenous local experts. Um, from our book boxes, we, um, partner with, um, Indie bookstores.

Jalisa: Our artisans are all local from the economy as a small business, either in the place that we're visiting or somewhere around the world. Um, and then each of our vendors are small businesses that are based in the place that we're in. So, um, Um, all the companies, the money is staying in the place that we're going to.

Jalisa: Uh, and then the fourth pillar is just your trip, your way. So that flexibility piece, because I know that a lot of group travel can feel like we're following the flag from place to place, but knowing that, um, everything is included, but everything is also optional. So if there is something really interesting that you find, you can break off.

Jalisa: from the group, or you have other travelers that might want to do something on the side with you. So just really building in that flexibility. So those kind of things are very explicit in what they're signing up for.

Christine: Yeah, thank you. It's funny that you went through that because I, I had a note here about going through your website and finding the section that really resonated. Well, one, I loved the transparency, but two, all of the points resonated and it was the what makes a book trip experience and all of those elements that you just walked us through, but I do think it's really important.

Christine: And, um, you mentioned, you know, applying to take a trip. I also have a similar form. Because it's so much about curating also who travels together, um, to create this community and making sure that this is the experience that people are looking for. Um, I know that that's something sometimes I get pushback or, you know, people are used to just going on booking.

Christine: com or hotels. com or whatever, and you just buy the trip and this idea that you have to Not really interview, but you know, it is kind of an interview process or an understanding is really different for some travelers. Um, what has that experience been like for you when people, do you engage with them in that process?

Christine: Or is it really just a form? Do you have a follow-up conversation? Because I tend to end up having a follow-up conversation with most people. Mm

Jalisa: um, I haven't gotten pushback from it, but I'm sure there might be quicker signups if there wasn't like a whole form to fill out. Um, but after they fill out the Interest form. Then I follow up for a conversation, just like acknowledging areas of synergy, answering any questions or letting them know some things that might be, um, concerns, like if there's a physical rigorous thing and they might have had a surgery recently or things like that.

Jalisa: So just making sure that there's a conversation piece and they know there's the other person. on the other end of it that's actually reading it and interacting with it. And I also think for the community building piece, it's really helpful for that. Um, so we ask people, what are some of the favorite books that they always recommend to people?

Jalisa: Like, tell me a little bit about who you want other people to know you as. So it also provides them a new opportunity to shape themselves outside of their jobs. Um, because a lot of our travelers are professional women. So it's a chance to introduce yourself. on your own terms. And also, that's a way pre trip, we package all those up into traveler profiles, so you know who you're traveling with before you hit the ground and there's that, that synergy.

Jalisa: But we haven't gotten much pushback from those. Yeah, for me, the reason I do it is, of course, for TripFit, but also because I do want it to be a relationship. So I don't want it to just be a stranger that we don't meet. Until you hit the ground and you don't know anything about me, I don't know anything about you.

Jalisa: We don't know if there's values alignment because I think some of that could potentially create friction. Like I think it minimizes some of the friction on the trip if you already have a shared sense of how we're coming to this place and why we're coming to this place. So that's, that's why it's important for me.

Christine: Yeah, I 100 percent agree. And even as you were speaking, I was thinking that process probably automatically like pairs off some of the people that it's probably not right for right. The people that see that and go through the process are already starting to feel seen and cared for and acknowledged.

Christine: And that's a part of I think what we're offering to is you to really be yeah. a person having this experience, not just, you know, someone coming on my trip. Like there's a real intimacy process. Um, and I also love, I also do, you know, a connection call before we travel. And it's so great because When you get there instead of the circle of women who are strangers like standing there kind of awkwardly Waiting to know what's gonna happen it's like people seeing each other in the lobby and like running and hugging each other like on day one and like Already crying because we're so happy to see each other and like when I see that happen I'm just like I mean, this is it this We don't even have to leave the lobby.

Christine: Like we already did good things.

Jalisa: I totally agree. Because on that, so we have our trip to Accra, Ghana next week. It starts next Thursday. It starts around home going by Yaa Gyasi. And on the pre travel call, the majority of the women had never traveled to the continent of Africa at all. So it really did feel like a homecoming for them. So there was that emotional connection of like, I've always wanted to go and that.

Jalisa: This just felt like the perfect way to go. And so seeing that other people felt that same way and they're not the only people that this is their first time. And then we have a group WhatsApp chat that we have leading up to the trip. So right after the pre travel call, um, they all joined the group chat and they talk about like, what outfits are.

Jalisa: Black people. So the majority of our travelers are Black. We do have women from all backgrounds, but the majority are Black. They, we love a, we love a, a theme. And so people are always like, so what is our coordinated color? What are we wearing for the dinners? So like those kind of conversations and excitement.

Jalisa: Um, I think to your point, when you hit the ground, it doesn't feel like these are strangers and I don't know anyone. There is some kind of relationship that, um, you have before you hit the ground. And I think also starting the trip in conversation about a book, so I too am an introverted person and so sometimes those cold openers, where it's just like we're in a room and we have to figure out how to network is really hard versus we're coming into the room and there's discussion questions.

Jalisa: Like somebody's facilitating the space so I, I know somebody else is holding it and I will have some natural ways to connect and I don't have to feel like I have to proactively do it, I think also creates that calmness where, okay, I can just show up. Somebody's holding this container for me.

Christine: I love that you mentioned being introverted cause I also am, and it's funny that we would be

Jalisa: I know.

Christine: space for like meeting other people. But again, I also, I think we create the spaces we need to kind of like heal and grow and feel safe. And so it also totally makes sense. Sense. Um, but I think then we're really present to that for others is like they might feel uncomfortable in this space.

Christine: How can I create something a little bit more like a softer landing instead of something that's going to feel really jarring?

Jalisa: Yeah, and I think so many of us, we create these companies to feel a niche that we saw, like there was something we desired to see in the world and didn't see it. And for me, um, as a black woman who traveled solo a lot, and then I would join these large groups who had already felt like people knew each other, like it would be families coming together, couples coming together, and I'd be the oddball out in a variety of ways.

Jalisa: Um, or it would feel like. I'm very interested in having conversations that are just a little bit deeper than what's happening. Um, and I want to connect with other people who want to get, like, down in the nitty gritty. So I am not, like, a house of weather. I'm like, oh, so tell me about your childhood dramas.

Jalisa: Like, I am that person. So, um, really, like, creating a container and a space that can be that. And I think the most exciting thing is, Finding out other people wanted that too. And I think that's probably your experience when you create it, you realize there are people who are just waiting for you in particular to, to come and

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Um, oh my gosh. Okay. So I'm trying to think of which way I want to go first there. The, um, the idea of deep conversations write off is also like my love language. And before I got on the call with you, I was letting you know that I just spent the week with one of our mutual colleagues, friends, people, Iris to the rescue from women's work, which is where I mentioned we met and we would have these like 10 minute coffee break, you know, between things.

Christine: And we would sit down for a second and it would take about like 42 seconds. And it was like like childhood trauma. And we're like, wait, how did we hear this quickly? And then we're like, okay, now we have to run for our next session and learn about SEO marketing, but let's come back to this in just a

Jalisa: Right.

Christine: Um, And I was like, Oh, I'm so grateful for people like that. Cause I always thought I was horrible at networking, horrible at socializing, horrible at being around people. But it was because I just don't have the skill to. try to figure out what to say if it doesn't mean something to my heart. Um, so I think that's, um, it's just really powerful to learn that about yourself and realize that actually maybe you're not, um, to communicate.

Christine: It's just that communication is, is really important and sacred. And like, you really hard to mess around with something that doesn't feel that good. Um, but I really, I did want to talk about, uh, women's work since we had that experience. Um, not at the same time, but we kind of wove together. Um, I love that program so much.

Christine: Um, it's

Jalisa: I'm a fangirl.

Christine: Yeah. Before. Yeah. We'll fangirl there too. But I wanted to hear from you about your experience. Thanks. What were you looking for when you found it? And what did it mean to you and the journey of creating your business?

Jalisa: Yeah. So, um, Book Church is a, is still a baby in the game. So we celebrate our two year anniversary on Monday. And so October 7th for people who are listening to this. Um, and so when I came to Women's Work last year, it was very much Um, I had this idea of creating a connection between my work I had done in philanthropy and my love of books and travel, and then I had created book trips.

Jalisa: I put it out there. Um, the first trip, seven people that were loosely connected to me came and we went to Mexico city for day of the dead and did an experience around like water for chocolate. So, which is perfect because it's all about food in Mexico city as a food city. Um, and then. More people wanted to come.

Jalisa: And so it just grew into this thing. And so when I came to women's work, I was really looking for the, the back end, like, how do you run a travel company? Because I came from the, like, here's a need, here's my passion, um, and I built it and people liked it, but I didn't have the, the sense of what are all the infrastructure pieces.

Jalisa: That you need to run a travel company. What is, what are the terminology that you need to know? What are the relationships that you need to build? Um, I come from the nonprofit sector where we don't have to think about profit motive driving everything, but when you're running a business. Profit motive is a thing now.

Jalisa: So I was really looking for like those kind of foundational understandings of what does it mean to build a business? And also, I want it to be in relationship with other women who were doing similar things. And I think that's one of the biggest values of women's work. The content is amazing. I will say that, like we have the best speakers come in.

Jalisa: Um, and I just think what Iris and the team have done there, like you come out of that yeah. with the best network of people. But I think the camaraderie of having a space to come and say, I don't know how to do this. Have you ever had this experience or somewhere to go? And you're like, this is an amazing thing that happened to me.

Jalisa: And there's a group of other women that are just as excited as you are about your wins. I think that was so valuable. And a thing that I, I feel like I under, Um, not underappreciated, but that's what I that wasn't the top of mind for me, but it became such an important part because the entrepreneurship journey I tell people all the time.

Jalisa: It feels like therapy, like you come up against yourself in ways that I don't think many other experiences give you. For me, it was like people pleasing and boundaries and like, how do you disconnect your sense of self worth? From what you're doing in the world. Like all of those things were coming up and we had a place to talk about that.

Jalisa: So one of our early sessions was about mindset. And I don't think a lot of business accelerators start there. They start around like marketing and finance and operations. But this was really about like. How do you grapple with your inner stuff because that shows up in your business world? And so I think that was just such a valuable experience.

Jalisa: And women's work will forever be one of the most phenomenal experiences I've had.

Christine: thank you for sharing that. And I think, you know, what you were saying is the strategic tactical things feel really important and are necessary, but the other parts kind of must much like travel that become the really important and valuable parts. And I always wonder about entrepreneurs and Like their soul journey, because as you mentioned, like, you do not get out of this, or I have not met someone who's gotten out of this without learning a lot more about yourself than you thought you would learn.

Christine: And like you said, the, the challenges that come up. It's, it's like living therapy. Yes. Like you're just like, what? I didn't know that was a trigger. Oh, I didn't know. I've been carrying that with me. Oh, I didn't know. I'm going to have to tear that down before I can figure out what my CRM system is. I don't know.

Christine: It's just, it's like the craziest experience. But I also think for the The travel that we're creating, that is actually a super important part of we can offer what we want to offer most because we actually have been kind of forced through some of that inner Excavation that we have a, maybe, um, just a way of appreciating that and what our travelers might be going through in their traveling journey, because I would believe for you, it's the same. Many of our travelers will sign up because love the destination where they love the book, or they're looking for community. They don't realize how much is going to happen while they're traveling. Or even if that's our intention. It's still, still a really powerful space, especially, I think, for communities of women aligned. by this, like, to have something more while they're traveling. Um, how, how has that shown up for your communities or what does that look like and feel like? Have you been surprised by what women go through and share with one another? Is it something you expected, you know, kind of in that, that container?

Jalisa: To the surprise piece, I think it's a yes and no question. I think what isn't surprising is how deep people go because of my experiences in book club meetings. And so I feel like book clubs are this place where you start talking about a book, but then you, it balloons out into all these bigger conversations that you didn't have the container or the space for before.

Jalisa: So in all of my book club conversations, they, it becomes conversations about loss. about what you fear, about what you dream, um, because there's just books give you a platform with for this thing is happening to a character and it's happening to me too. And now I get a chance to tell other people. And there's just so few spaces where people can, can have that platform or where people ask the deep questions.

Jalisa: And I think books ask us the deep questions and provide us the opportunity to engage with them, um, with other people. So that part's not surprising that people. Go deep. Um, and have those epiphanies. I think what is surprising and delightful to me every time is the relationships that get built and how quickly they get built.

Jalisa: And I guess that's just like when you're thrown into this place where I don't know any other people. It just you're automatically just more open and susceptible to wonder and connection. But it's still every time when I see those, like real friendships get built, It just delights me to no end. So we keep the group chats open.

Jalisa: And for the Mexico city trip that happened in May, um, two of the travelers. Well, for the travelers actually, um, had met up in there, like they had traveled to see each other afterwards. So like seeing that there's these long lasting relationships that are not just this one off, but like that people have found their, their people, they found their community.

Jalisa: And for our alumni, they're always asking like, okay, can we have alumni only trips? Because these are my friends and I would love to meet up with them again. So I think that's surprising to me, just like how connected people feel to each other. Yeah,

Christine: two kind of myth bustings, I guess, that we're doing that a lot of times when you say I have a women's book club, people picture the like, romance novel, wine, never talk about the book, right? And I have been in those book clubs, or maybe it's a great book, but then, Half the people read it and you'd still never really talk about it.

Christine: And I was really frustrated because I'm like, I read it. I highlighted, I took an outline. I'm really ready for this conversation. I'm like, I want to talk about the book. Um, and the same thing with group travel sometimes, especially for women, there might be this. Perception and maybe this is a media created perception again that it's like gonna just be like there's like three different movies coming through my mind and I can't think of the name of any, but like, just again like this spring fling kind of idea and the. The depth is getting missed, but every, every experience that I've ever been a part of or near or any of the women I know who run trips for women, it's just absolutely untrue. Like there's so much depth available. And I just think it's really powerful and beautiful. And that when people are, if people are really looking for that in their lives, I hope they find this because I, I don't know. I don't know what the greater narrative is out there, but I feel like people are always surprised when I meet them at a travel show or I'm telling them about my business. They're like, this exists. God. I'm just like, I'm dying for this experience. I have been looking for that. And I don't know if you hear that too, but it's like this idea of depth in groups of women still feel surprising to some people.

Jalisa: I do think there's also this narrative about. Like groups of women can't get along like I don't know where that comes from because I don't experience that. But I do. I hear that where people are afraid, like, well, it get caddy or whatever, whatever things, but I think what helps with that is that's why framing and perspective is so important.

Jalisa: So I think the type of people who are looking for a book inspired experience who want to have an immersive experience who want to invest in local communities. That's a particular type of person. Anyways, and I think that allows for different kinds of connections to happen because those are the type of people who are looking to go beneath the surface, who are interested and curious and open minded because book people, you, you go into books to discover an experience that is not like yours.

Jalisa: And so I think it lends you to be just more open for travel and connection. Um, and I also think some of it is the container itself, like how our trip leaders, our tour guides, providing the space for conversation and doing probing in a way that invites a little bit of depth. So for every trip, when we have our opening dinner and book discussion, the first question we ask are, who are your people?

Jalisa: So we don't come as just independent people with no history ourselves. So, who are the people that make you, you? Um, so my people are like, people who love a living room dance party. Cause that is me. Um, people who are a little bit quirky, who are a little bit introverted until you get among the right people.

Jalisa: Um, people who care about social justice. So, we all start talking about like, who are the type of people that are people? And you start to hear the commonalities and you realize, who Oh, these two are my people. This room is my people. And so I think that framing to start helps to create connections. So just thinking intentionally, how are you building the experience and the itinerary in a way that creates these opportunities for that?

Jalisa: Yes,

Christine: I'm like, also you're just my people. I'm like, I love that list of like loves. And I'm, I think it's so valuable too. Cause I might think, Oh, it's peculiar that I love. Books and social justice and travel and, you know, whatever my laundry list of things I love, like to me, they feel a little bit weird sitting on the shelf together, but that validation when you also see someone else being like, Oh, that's the thing I also like pick up and love.

Christine: It's, I think it's really special. And, and to be honest about what those things are too, because I think You know, we all curate this version of ourselves, especially in today's day and age where literally we're curating images of ourself online. And I think that freedom to just honor whatever that is, is super special.

Christine: And The other thing that you mentioned that really resonated for me is the way that books help us discover things about ourselves or give us new language about ourselves and like, become a huge part of our growth journey. I know there's the genre of personal development and spiritual development and things like that.

Christine: Like those are books I love, but it isn't necessarily just those books that teach us things and those books. Sometimes don't even teach us the things I think they thought they might, but when you have those conversations with other women, like in my, my, um, book sojourn that I do, um, like you said, like, you'll start here and then you're off on this path and then what that has allowed.

Christine: Women in that container to share and process together. And then the action that's come out of it, it feels also sacred. This is the word I'll use all the time, but like that people let us be a part of that journey. I can't even believe, and it has truly changed people's lives. And it sounds corny and cheesy and all the things, but that ability to safely.

Christine: examine scary or uncomfortable parts of your life with others and have them validate you like right there that they see and feel and recognize how important that is to you. It gives people strength in a way that we don't really truly appreciate. And I like just hear for that experience happening over and over again. Um, the other thing you mentioned way back is people sharing the books they always recommend. I want to ask you, what are, what are the books do you always recommend?

Jalisa: Oh, this is so hard because I have so many. Um. Mm. How We Show Up by Mia Birdsong, um, I think is great for people who are very interested in conversations about friendship and community that's not centered in the nuclear family or in romantic relationship, but how do we create more expansive ways of belonging to one another.

Jalisa: I love, love, love that book and will always talk about it. Um, I love Butter Honey Pig Bread by Francesca. It's just like a delicious book. So it's set between Nigeria and Canada and the dishes mentioned in the book are just like, you can taste them. Um, so I did a anniversary dinner last year around that book in partnership with Eats and Beats.

Jalisa: And so, yeah. Um, we created, um, a playlist and a 10, um, item or 10 factor menu, um, that was inspired by dishes from the book, so just that experience of being able to, to have a dinner around it. I love that book. I would say, Um, beyond the shores, a history of African Americans abroad by Tamir Walker. I recommend that one because I think there's this conversation, particularly in communities of color or black communities about like being expats.

Jalisa: Or travel that feels like, oh, this is something new, but this takes it for, we've been traveling for nearly 100 years and the book talks about black people abroad in areas as diverse as Russia, France, Uzbekistan, Kenya, Argentina. So just, I think that's great for having a more expansive view of black people in travel.

Jalisa: Um, so I always recommend that. Um, and then I like a little drama and a little mess. So, um, Made a Pool of Death With Your Beauty by Akwaeke Emzy. I'm not usually a romance girl, but that gave me the right amount of dark drama mess that just, it does it for me. So, I also often recommend that. Favorite authors are T.

Jalisa: S. A. Lehman, um, Adrienne Marie Brown, Tony Morrison, and I also love, uh, she did the Secret Lives of Church Ladies, Deisha Filial. She actually is the inspiration behind Book Trips. So I was reading the Secret Lives of Church Ladies during the pandemic, and it's a short story collection, and there was this one short story about, peach cobbler.

Jalisa: And I was like, Oh, I would love to do a peach cobbler making class in Savannah, Georgia with a group of women over a weekend. And then I was like, Oh, wait, there's a lot of experiences that you could do around books. And so that was really the book that started my thinking around book trips being a thing.

Jalisa: So those are, I'll pause there, but those are top of mind, some books that I love to recommend.

Christine: Oh my gosh, they all sound really beautiful. And I love that there's not one there that I know. So that makes me really, really happy. Um, which I, I think that's the other magic about books, right? Everybody has. the stories that resonate with who they are. And so we kind of put different piles around us because I'm sure you're like me and you have piles of books probably literally within arms for each.

Christine: Um, because they're, they're like an extension. I mean, I can't get rid of my books because they are a part of me. Like the idea, I don't know if you know, like the Rey Kondo or whatever, you know, you should only have five books or something like that. And

Jalisa: No. I repeat that. Return to sender. Will not accept.

Christine: Yeah, I'm like five shirts. Fine. Five books.

Jalisa: Right.

Christine: Um, I was just trying to think of recently or when people think about maybe travel books or women's spirituality or those things that are kind of really in my heart right now. I always love the alchemist, which was kind of a tried and true, but it's one that every time I read it.

Christine: I just pick up something different and it's super small. So I feel like it's accessible. It's got a lot in it and it's super simple at the same time. Like, I'm like, it's the most magical book feels like, like sorcery almost. It's like, uh, yeah, I can't even, and then like, I'll finish it and then I'll be like, was that the end?

Christine: I feel like I have to start over already. Like every time I'm like, I don't know what's happening with that book. Um, then I really love the book of longings by Sue Monk Kidd. Um, I don't know if you've read that one, but it's, um, just really beautifully written and it really speaks to like the story of women in a unique way.

Christine: Like I, I really love it. Even though it's fiction, it feels so true in my heart that I'm like mesmerized by it. Um, and then much like you like, uh, using books as a way to understand cultures that we're not a part of or experiences that we've never had, I think is valuable. And, um, one book that I love was the namesake, which is a lot older book.

Christine: Um, and I'll probably say because it's Indian and I'm not sure, but it's, um, Jhumpa Lahiri. That book is just, I don't know, again, what was about it, but I read it and I was like, man, I was just meant to read this book. Like I just deeply love this story so much. And it was something I had no relationship to any of those experiences. Like there is just so far from my lived experience, but I loved, I just loved it so much.

Christine: I just, I just wanted it to be a part of me. So, yeah.

Jalisa: I love that. I love those ones. And I feel like, um, Junipers, and I'm not sure I'm pronouncing their name correctly, but the backlist is thorough. Like, No misses.

Christine: Yeah, um, and I know there was another one, uh, by the same author, but I can't think of right now, but anyone listening, I would probably be sure if you love books, all of these will be great ones to, to tap into. Um, well, I really appreciate the conversation so much. It has like flown by for us, which should not be surprising.

Christine: Um, I know you have a few new scripts coming out. I don't know if you have. If there's spoilers or if you just want to let people know that they're coming and where to find you so that they can look for them.

Jalisa: Sure. So for 2025 currently on the books, we have a March trip to Panama, which is sold out, unfortunately. Um, and we have an April trip. April 4th through 15th to Johannesburg in Cape Town, South Africa. We're reading Trevor Noah's Born a Crime, and there are three spots still available for that. So, um, would love to have some folks there.

Jalisa: Um, in November we are going to be announcing a few additional trips, so there is still opportunities to connect. This is a little bit of a spoiler, but it might not be by the time that you hear this. Um, so we're going to have a March trip to New Orleans for the New Orleans Book Festival. And, um, we're going to do an experience around Charisma Price's book, I'm Always So Serious.

Jalisa: So it's a poetry collection that really gets to the sense of mourning. loss and joy. That is the experience of New Orleans post Katrina. It's so beautifully written, so very excited about that. We're going to be going back to Ghana in October of 2025, around Homegoing by Yaa Gyasi, which is a multi generational story of two half sisters that are split.

Jalisa: One stays in Ghana and one goes to the United States and it follows their lineage, um, through American slavery and then what's happening with colonialism on the continent and then they meet back up at the end. So it's a really beautiful book and we'll be going back for that. And then, um, in November, we're going to go to Morocco.

Jalisa: And so that we're going to be focused on women artisans in Morocco and their stories. So, um, really excited for that experience too. So that's what's to come. And then we'll also be doing some dinner series. So some domestic opportunities for folks to connect over books. So This way you don't have to leave your home in your country to travel to other places.

Jalisa: So we'll be having some custom menus, um, for different locations like Trinidad and Tobago, Japan, where you'll get the experience and taste of those without having to leave the U. S.

Christine: I love it. Again, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Okay, so quit my job and just start following you around the world. And that's what I really need to be my job. It's just like other people's trips. It's like, um, a food

Jalisa: Yes.

Christine: And it's not just a travel writer, because it's not the same thing, but yes, I would.

Christine: That's like my dream job, to be able to just experience everybody else's trips that I know are so beautiful. Um, yeah, it just feels like that would be a gift, but if anyone, if anyone out there knows what that job is, that's what I want. Um, okay. Well, before we end our call, Julie, I just have our rapid fire questions.

Christine: Um, and the first one I'll be curious because this is clearly right up your alley, but what are you reading right now?

Jalisa: Um, charisma prices. I'm always so serious. So I'm rereading that. I stayed up till 3 a. m. just with my brain firing on that one.

Christine: Yeah. Uh, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?

Jalisa: So I started pre packing my carry on bag so it's just always ready to go. So I keep travel sized toiletries on hand, snacks because I'm a snacky girl. Like I, I always need a snack because I get hangry. Um, I have a peppermint essential oil roll on because it calms me, um, during flights or just any kind of like high intensity experience.

Jalisa: Um, headphones to listen to music and podcast and then the Kindle app on my phone. So I can read on the go.

Christine: Mm hmm. Yeah, I still bring my Kindle. Like, I finally gave up books mostly when I travel, although sometimes I still have to. And now I have my Kindle. And I saw someone reading on the plane yesterday, and I was like, on their phone, and I was like, I could probably do that. And I was like, I don't know. I don't think I can go there yet.

Jalisa: It's a different experience because there's something about the size that makes the reading experience more enjoyable on a Kindle.

Christine: Yeah. Um, okay. Next one is, um, to sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while. Where is someplace that you would still love to sojourn?

Jalisa: I will say. Japan. And it's a little bit of a cheat because I get to go at the end of this month. Um, I'm visiting Tokyo, Hakone, Kyoto, and Kanazawa. And there are so many book inspired things happening there that I'm excited to just like dive in. So there's the, there's the Kimbocho Book Town, and they have a book festival that's going to coincide with when I'm there.

Jalisa: Um, I'm going to get to meet with local artisans and do kintsugi, which is like when you have a broken plate and then you pair it back together with gold. And so I'm just really excited about that in the future. food. Like I have a sushi making experience. Like, um, I'm going to get to experience the geisha or make go the geisha in training.

Jalisa: And so just, I'm very excited about diving all the way in and doing all the bookish things.

Christine: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Um, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?

Jalisa: Hmm. I'm thinking like chilaquiles and Mexico city. So that's my top five food city and I will get on a plane just to eat. Absolutely.

Christine: I, the food was just unbelievable. Like, and not just, you know, messy Mexican food or food indigenous to the region, but like I went to the best high restaurant I've ever been to in my life. And I've spent six weeks in Thailand. So it's saying something, um, yeah, there was so much, so much good food.

Christine: I took my oldest daughter who luckily loves. and appreciates good food. And she just was dying. She's like, everything, mom, everything is so good. Like this muffin. Have you ever seen a muffin like this? I'm like, no, this is insane. Um, yeah. Okay. Uh, I digress again, of course. Um, who is a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out to travel the world?

Jalisa: So I would think my mother is who comes first to mind. She's not a traveler. We, she just went on her first big international trip with me earlier this year. She was able to join me on the book trips, Cape Town, South Africa experience. So, uh, her getting to go to the continent was like a huge deal for her.

Jalisa: And I think it inspires me because it reminds me that I come from this lineage of women who, um, didn't have the opportunities to be as free and as curious about the world as I am. So my maternal grandmother only had a third grade education, but she would write poetry in her Bible. Um, so she was like a self taught poet.

Jalisa: And then my mom finally getting to travel and now she has like the travel bug. Um, so just knowing that I'm realizing this bigger dream and how she's always pushed me to go out into the world in ways that she couldn't, she's definitely my inspiration.

Christine: Thank you for sharing that. If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be? So it can be a good one for you too.

Jalisa: I think I would pick Maya Angelou just because she's like spicy. She, I feel like she would show a little leg, like she'd be out for the dancing. She'd be great dinner party conversation. Like we would just get into shenanigans and be able to have really deep, meaningful conversations. Um, she has a book, um, God bless the child.

Jalisa: That has traveling shoes about her time in Ghana in the fifties and sixties. And she was hanging out with Malcolm X and all these thought leaders where I'm like, yeah, she's the one that I want to be around for sure.

Christine: Yeah. Um, okay. Last one. Uh, as you know, Soul of Travel is a place for celebrating and recognizing women in the industry. Who is someone that you admire that you'd like to celebrate in this space?

Jalisa: Ooh, there's so many picking one is so hard. Um, if I have to pick one, I would say, um, Catalina Mayorga from El Camino travel, so she also does small group travel. Um, but he has the El Camino Clubhouse, which is like this repository of information and connections she's built for, um, women who love off the beat and hard to get to travel, um, so they do, uh, Like monthly guides for different cities around the world.

Jalisa: You can ask a question and people have recommendation. There are like travel operators and advisors in there. And just that, that free sharing that's happening is excellent. And then she's going into the world of AI and getting really forward thinking about tech. So she's just like my. The person I look to the most in travel, where I just love what she's doing and how she's doing it because she's very into socially responsible travel.

Jalisa: So that would be the person I would pick.

Christine: Great. Thank you so much. Um, I really, really, really appreciate the conversation. I'm so glad we were able to make it happen between your trips and my trips. Um, and can't wait to share this conversation with my listeners.

Jalisa: you so much for having me. And just this conversation was excellent. Thank you so much.

Christine: Thank you.