Cultural Connections for Responsible Travel with Phoebe Maina

Soul of Travel Podcast Episode 207 with Phoebe Maina is now available!

In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Phoebe Maina.

A seasoned social impact expert with over 15 years of diverse experience, Phoebe Maina, Founder and CEO of Steri Tours and Travel, excels in managing turnaround projects with a high success rate. Her expertise spans the design and management of local and global initiatives focused on women's empowerment, child protection, travel, and community and business development. Having worked extensively with diverse communities across Africa, Phoebe possesses a deep understanding of multicultural and development dynamics, coupled with a passion for driving positive change at grassroots levels. Her vision extends beyond individual accolades—she is dedicated to driving economic growth in Africa through sustainable tourism practices.

Christine and Phoebe discuss:

· Phoebe's journey from development work to founding Steri Tours, focusing on empowering local communities through responsible tourism and creating meaningful cultural experiences for travelers
· Supporting and empowering women in the tourism industry through mentorship, prioritizing female guides, and creating opportunities for women in local communities
· The importance of creating equitable relationships between tourists and local communities

Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Phoebe Maina.

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To read our episode blog post, access a complete transcript, see full show notes, and find resources and links mentioned in this episode, head to the Soul of Travel Website. 

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Book your next meaningful adventure in Kenya with Steri Tours. Connect with Phoebe and Steri Tours on LinkedIn!

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Phoebe Maina (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by

Transcript

Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel Podcast. I'm your host, Christine, and I'm very happy to be sitting down today with Phoebe Maina and she is the CEO of Starry Tours. And we met, um, through our time in the women's work program, which I've mentioned endless amounts of time here on the podcast.

Christine: They're one of our podcast allies, and I'm really excited today to have you here to share your story and your journey and the impact you're creating in tourism.

Phoebe: Thank you so much, Christine. It's a pleasure to be with you here.

Christine: Thank you. Uh, well, just to begin our conversation, Phoebe, I'd actually love to just turn it over to you to allow you to introduce yourself to my listeners and share a little bit about the work 

Christine: that you do. 

Phoebe: Thank you so much, Christine. And, uh, I'm very happy to join you in this podcast and to tell you about Stereo Tours. Uh, I am Phoebe, as Christine has said, the founder of Stereo Tours. Stereo tours and travel a company that I began as a transition from the development world. And this is after I traveled a lot in communities and I desired to see empowered communities and there is no better way to empower communities economically than through tourism.

Phoebe: And that is how I was inspired to begin stereo tours and travel to work with communities as they showcase. They are culture, they preserve the culture and as the biggest custodians, uh, of conservation of the wildlife and also, uh, the environment to see them reap from their hard work to conserve the environment and wildlife.

Phoebe: I thought I could work with them to co create experiences for my travelers while the communities have a fair share of the tourism income.

Christine: Well, thank you for that overview. I know you said you started work in the development sector. I don't know if either of us mentioned where you live, so we should definitely mention that. But, um, You worked in the development sector. Can you talk a little bit more about how that started to? Or how that influenced your transition into travel.

Christine: I know you briefly mentioned, but I'm just curious about maybe what that aha moment was that that was a place that you could

Phoebe: Okay. Yeah, I live in Nairobi, Kenya, and I worked for over 15 years in the development sector, and I worked a lot with communities in different areas in the country. And so this involved a lot of travel. And every time we hosted the donors and the sponsors, we would also travel into the Parks, the national parks and everything and also to the beach.

Phoebe: And, uh, my eyes opened wider to the communities that surrounded these beautiful hotels and beautiful destination. And I could see such a big gap between, you know, like the, the destination and the host communities. And every time I visited that area, I wished the communities derived or rather, I mean, like the, the destination or rather the hotels.

Phoebe: I mean, the lives of the host communities matched the hotels in the destination. And that is what really inspired my desire to start a travel company and work with the host communities. So that they also as, as tourism drives, they also drive. And, um, yeah, I worked with children. I worked with, uh, community members and I saw they also had an opportunity, uh, that would be.

Phoebe: leverage on in tourism such that it would give something unique to the travelers who are looking for something more than the safaris. The, you know, the safaris are good. They are great. We are big on that as a country, but I have encountered a couple of travelers who want more than that. And that is why I established Stereo Tours and Travel to offer Kenya or rather to showcase Kenya beyond the safaris and while at it ensure that the communities thrive as the tourism thrives.

Christine: Yeah. Um, as you were just speaking, um, about, about tourism in the area, I was just reminded when I went to Kenya, which I think has been almost 20 years now. Um, and I didn't go on any safari. I just was like, Oh, I just realized. That I didn't at all. And, um, you know, I ended up spending more time with people and I had a friend living there who works, um, in cheetah conservation.

Christine: And so I was staying with her and helping her with some of her research and kind of volunteering. Um, no, do you know Mary Weickstra by any chance? I don't Weickstra. She is in Nairobi as well. I'll

Phoebe: Okay, that would be

Christine: But, uh, I, uh, I just was thinking, you know, when, when people tell the stories that they tell about traveling to Kenya, their stories are really different than mine because they have probably gone and done more of the bucket list sort of travel experiences and, um, For me, you know, I stayed with my friend and then we visited some of the the researchers that support her that are local and we went to their homes and then visited and I met like their family and their kids and then we went camping out and you know where we were tracking cheetahs and so I have A real connection to the people in place, I think in a special way, because it wasn't, I didn't really go there as a traveler.

Christine: I, you know, I went there, obviously I traveled there, but I wasn't there to be a tourist. And so I feel like those experiences were really powerful. And I have one thing that stays with me. I was visiting with the wife of one of the scientists and, or of the researchers, and She was doing dishes and she had a, you know, a tub of water out in the, in the yard where she was doing dishes.

Christine: And we were like playing with the kids and like moving dishes from one tub to the other. And it didn't really dawn on me in that moment, but then after I came home, every time I go to my sink and I like turn on my water, I think of her doing dishes and I just think. Wow, this is so easy. And not that it seemed hard for her, but I just think like it's just an awareness I have and I wouldn't have had it if I hadn't had that moment with her in her daily life experience.

Christine: And you know, like I said, it didn't, it didn't feel like I'm comparing like a blessing to a struggle. It's just like my way of life and her way of life. And it's just a really simple aha moment for me. that stands out. And I feel like when you talk about travel, those are those kind of unexpected, seemingly simple moments that are really impactful in understanding where you are.

Christine: And I just thought you would appreciate the

Phoebe: That is true. That is true. When you connect, you know, with a destination, when you go beyond just ticking off the bucket list, I mean, it becomes more meaningful. And I saw it when I was working in the development world, because the people would come and we would spend a whole week in the community, digging trenches, building schools, and distributing books, and you know, like, they had a real, you know, Connection with the people.

Phoebe: And then on the last day of their trip in Kenya, that's when they would go and do a safari. And so they had more memories of the community because they spent more time in the community. And then after that, they iced it with the wildlife or with the safari. And, uh, I know, and I also have those special moments.

Phoebe: And when I share with them, we, we, you know, we, we go down the memory lane and, uh, it, we made beautiful memories during that period. And it is because there was that connection with the locals. Mm

Christine: I think it's so interesting too, because when you talk to many travelers, when they Pick somewhere to go, especially somewhere like Kenya. They are going for these bigger reasons, but no matter where they pick often the things that become the most important to them or the connections they made. And when you're selling travel, sometimes it feels hard to sell them the connection when they want the experience, even though, you know, at the end of the day, what's going to be in their journal is that moment with that person they happened to bump into in the market that reminded them of their uncle or something, you know, it's, it's never what they think it is that will be the most important

Phoebe: That's true. That's very true. Yeah.

Christine: Um, well, I wanted to talk a little bit more about, you know, you were talking about economic growth through tourism and responsible tourism and the dissonance between the local experience and the tourism experience, and I think that's something many of us in the industry as professionals and as travelers.

Christine: We've witnessed and, you know, I, even I've taken my children places and we'll be somewhere, you know, at the hotel and they're like, this kind of feels like home and like, yes, it does. Let's go somewhere else so that you can feel like you're 

Christine: not at home. Um, and I just was speaking with someone else about this, too, is this idea that we've spent a lot of time making travel comfortable and so that we also make it replicable and all of a sudden you erase where you are because you've kind of created these similar experiences and then also what you were saying where The people in the communities are living such a different experience than the travelers when they're there, but they're right

Phoebe: hmm.

Christine: each other.

Christine: So when you're looking at bridging that gap, what have you done to try to make the tourism more beneficial for local communities, but also like help travelers get into communities? Like how do you create that connection and that equity in that relationship?

Phoebe: in our packages, we, uh, we go out of our way to create experiences that will give the traveler an opportunity to have one on one with the community. Like, we have partnered with some of, uh, some of the lodges and some of the camps that are in the community. at the heart of the community, where now, uh, they get the food from the community.

Phoebe: And sometimes we organize, uh, the tours in such a way that lunch is not at the hotel, but lunch is at one of the homes in the villages. Where the, uh, where the traveler, they go, they shop, they go to the market with the community. They come and prepare the food together. And so maybe that lunch, it is the Kenyan food.

Phoebe: And their dinner, let's say somebody is from Mexico or from India or from whichever country, they also teach them one of their meals. And so there is that cultural exchange, but we communicate that because it requires a lot of awareness to the travelers because you see on the internet and there is the standard to us packages and to get the client think or rather the traveler think differently.

Phoebe: When I have a one on one meeting with them, I tell them, by the way, we have these experiences and I think it will create a memory or other memorable experience for you. Would you want us to add it on, on the itinerary? And then they get excited and they're like, Oh my God, I want to be, I mean, to be part of that.

Phoebe: Like, uh, there is a team of girls. I took to one of the communities. That is, uh, near the coast, but it was a safari experience, but at the same time, a cultural immersion where, uh, I did it as a, as a, as a, as a surprise. This one was not part of the itinerary, but on the last day I told them we will pass by, uh, somewhere.

Phoebe: And, uh, I just want you to be open and flexible. And so when we went there, we went to this community where we warmed the drums. And, uh, the community was ready for us. They gave us their traditional wear where we all changed to their traditional where we warmed drums together with the men and also with the women and then got on the floor without shoes and started dancing in one of us.

Phoebe: was celebrating her 40th birthday. And so it turned out to be her birthday celebration. And we danced for one hour as it rained and nobody recognized that it was raining. And you see now, uh, the money that, uh, I mean, actually I hadn't charged them for that, but from the money that they had paid, I had put aside to pay for that experience.

Phoebe: But I also asked them, would they like to give to this community? And they gave generously. And so, you know, to see the community earn from that and earn something decent, you know, not just I mean, the normal 10, 20 tip, but a good amount that helps them plan. Well, like whenever they know I have a team there, then they expect some amount as much as, uh, I tell them.

Phoebe: In advance, how many people I'm bringing. And so we have come to an agreement, how much I charge per person and whatever I charge for that experience, it goes direct to the community because I already make my money from the transportation and from accommodation, but for the experience, it's an add on to make sure that the, uh, the guests have a better experience, a memorable experience.

Phoebe: And also the community gets to make a decent. Also for the homes that hosts the lunch or the dinner with the, I mean, we, with the guests, they also get a pay from that or rather for that. So they are able to plan well if they know, uh, in a month, we have five groups coming from steady to us. They, I mean, they have, they can plan better economically other than the ones that are random.

Phoebe: And, uh, And are stage managed. Those ones, they don't really, there is no sustainability in that. But when I have partnered with them, with the community leaders, they can plan ahead because I tell them in advance, on this month we have two groups, the other month we have only one family, you know, and it helps them plan better and also gives them an opportunity to influence other community members to be part of that as they showcase their traditions, their culture, their food, and at the same time, they preserve their culture.

Phoebe: Yeah,

Christine: Phoebe, when you're starting a relationship like that with a village, what does that conversation look like? When you, when you're say you're curious to bring travelers in to either dine with them or experience a cultural, cultural activity, or just when you say you want to visit, is that how do the, how do they receive that?

Christine: Are they really excited to have travelers? Do they have input about what they think would be interesting?

Phoebe: it is interesting for the ones who have not experienced guests. Uh, they get excited and they are, they, they are curious to know how would that look like. And sometimes the questions I get is, do we need to prepare a special meal? And then I'm like, no, you just need to be at your natural setting. Don't change anything.

Phoebe: Just go on with your normal life. If you milk the cows at 3 PM, That is the time you'll meet with the cows. If you go to the farm to get the, the kales and to get the tomatoes, you, the guests will accompany you to the shamba. We call it shamba or rather to the farm to get that. And then you come back and prepare together whatever the meal is.

Phoebe: But I also prepare the guests about the meal because there is that cultural. Uh, shock culture shock where I mean, it's a meal that you have never eaten before. And, uh, so I prepare both the team. Then again, for the ones who have done it before, uh, sometimes the, there is the question of, are we going to be exploited again?

Phoebe: Is it a way of, you know, Phoebe making money at our expense. So I have to sit down and, uh, Have a conversation with them on how that will look like and be transparent with them that this is how much I'm charging the clients. And this is what, I mean, like the whole amount is coming to you and I give it to them in the, I mean, when the guests come to ensure that there is transparency and to also show them the benefit.

Phoebe: of, you know, that cultural exodus and hosting the communities so that they don't feel like they're being exploited. And, uh, they also get excited about it and they see it as a sustainable way of making an income as they share their culture and welcome the guests in their community. Mhm.

Christine: and I think that's such a, um, that's such a interesting line because you know, or I know from speaking with communities, and I'm sure as you just mentioned, some communities have seen how it becomes more one sided exchange or extractive and they feel like they're being taken advantage of or things are being changed in order to accommodate tourists rather than have travelers see.

Christine: Things as they are. So I think that's such a an important conversation. Um, Um, do you, do they set any boundaries, like as, as far as how many travelers can come or how often, I'm just curious what that looks like for them to maintain like their level of normalcy while still having travelers, because it seems like if you have like five groups in a period of time, that's probably great.

Christine: But if you have 25 groups in a period of time, now you are a tourist destination, not like a working

Phoebe: I agree. Okay. I have not had a situation where we have so many groups going into one location because our cultural experiences spread across the country and the fact that we have over 40 40 tribes or rather over 40 almost 50 Cultural experiences. Uh, it gives me an opportunity to mean to have it spread out to ensure that there is no over tourism in one community.

Phoebe: And then again, there are those that will tell you, uh, I mean, they'll tell you in advance on this day. We are not available. And, uh, so So maybe, uh, we are not able to, to host your group and that way I have to look for an alternative. And I have to respect that because I don't have to, you know, like force it on them.

Phoebe: Like, Oh, you know, we, we signed an agreement or we agreed and this is going to affect my business. No, no, no. I don't look at it that way. I have to respect their boundaries. And, uh, when they say the, this is too much, we can't take in, but I, uh, we haven't gotten there where they feel like this is too much.

Phoebe: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Thank you for talking through that. And I just think it's such an important conversation. And I think, um, I just, I think that the, the conversation is happening, which is important, I think, for a long time in the industry. It was just like I said, kind of one sided and I think we've realized how important it is to have communities involved and that's what I have loved seeing in your work is, is how much you try to create that dialogue and use this really to create equity and in doing that, like that voice of the people you're working with is really, really important, so.

Christine: Thank you for, for talking us through that. Um, one of the other things I really wanted to talk to you about, I know that you were an award winner, um, from the 63rd session of the UN commission on status of women, um, in 2019, and that advancing gender equity and women's empowerment is very central to your mission.

Christine: That's something that I think, uh, we really Connect on. So I wanted to talk to you about how do you support this with stereotours? And what does what does that conversation and that action look like in

Phoebe: Okay. For me, I, when I do that through mentorship of, uh, young girls or other young women graduating from, uh, hospitality and others also graduating from college and they want to join me in tourism. And so I take them, I

Phoebe: take a lot of interns and I give priority to the girls or, uh, because sometimes in the hospitality industry, sometimes it can be very difficult, especially for women, because most of the hotels and the lodges.

Phoebe: opportunities might come out, uh, come up in the wilderness that is in the parks. And I have been having discussions with most of them, and, uh, it becomes difficult as a woman when you're posted, you know, in the wilderness. And, uh, you know, so when they come out, uh, asking for, I mean, for opportunities, I give them that opportunity and I mentor them.

Phoebe: And, uh, I don't have a problem with them working in the bush and all that, but there has to be a balance because you see now for women, it can be. Tricky. So I mentor them on how to handle that. And I also give them an opportunity for them to grow their career in my company as interns and others who are not joining as interns.

Phoebe: I have, uh, opportunities for them at a personal level for mentorship. And then also I, I speak up, uh, through mentorship in the Kenya Association of Women in Tourism, where I am a board member. And, uh, we have a mentorship program where we mentor the women, I mean, not just the women, but the students in the hospitality industry and also in the tourism industry that is in a couple of colleges and universities here in Kenya.

Phoebe: So I am at the forefront too. advance, uh, the agenda of women in tourism as I work there as a board member and also in the mentorship program of the association. And also besides that, sorry, sorry to cut you short. Besides that, uh, I also work with the minority, uh, that is in the minority in this country and I have partnered with a couple of girls who look up to me as their mentor and, uh, I have organized several, um, cultural experiences through them, like recently the one I welcomed them to the children camp as we also do cultural preservation, uh, and also, um, I give them that opportunity to stand out in their community where women are not really I mean, they're not heard.

Phoebe: I mean, they're not listened to and they're not given an opportunity to speak up. So when I embrace them and I ask, I include them like in the camps that I do, they are able to go back into their community and tell them, see, I am able to make a difference in this community through cultural experiences and through cultural conservation or preservation.

Phoebe: Okay.

Christine: Um, I think mentorship is so important. We're going to talk a little bit more about that later from your perspective. But I think that one of the things that we can Most easily do right to to create an impact and, um, to create spaces for people to learn and to grow and pass that wisdom on. Um, I'm wondering about in your trips and you're the travel experiences that you planned.

Christine: You also work to support women. Um, You know, intentionally through

Phoebe: Yes, I do. Like, uh, whenever we are giving, uh, I'm choosing a guide to go with the, with my guests, I give priority to the women guides, which are not many, but, uh, the first priority is the women guide. And the, the feedback that I get from the guests was like, oh, she was amazing and all that. But, uh, I'm hoping that we can get more women guides in the future.

Phoebe: In the tourism industry because we don't have as many. And then again, it's a male dominated, uh, I mean, uh, space. That is because you have to drive, uh, the stick. And then also you have to be in the wilderness, you know, looking out for animals and all that. But besides that, there is those ones now that work in the hotel industry.

Phoebe: But also in my company, the women are more than the men. The women that I work with in my company and also besides the one that worked for me full time, I work with the community women like to make, uh, the, the beadwork or the souvenirs that they work. And I encourage my guests to buy from the women in the communities instead of coming back to buy, you know, their souvenirs from the city and all that.

Phoebe: More than often, I encourage them to buy from the communities and I work also with the community leaders to ensure that whenever there is some guests going there, the women have an opportunity to come and display their things so that these guests can buy from them. And they, you know, there is some satisfaction when they are buying directly.

Phoebe: from these women. And then now there is a story from the souvenir that you buy from a woman who says I made this pot or I made this mat or I made this earring and the reason I made this is because I wanted to buy some food for my children or I was doing this as I worked together with a group of women.

Phoebe: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Um, that reminded me of a conversation I had to I always have conversations. So I don't even know why I say that. But yes, um, with someone talking about souvenirs in particular, actually, and that, you know, kind of creating a shift in the mindset of thinking about of travelers that are purchasing things that they're not just a way of kind of proving that you went somewhere.

Christine: That's kind of along the lines of those bucket list experiences, right? Like get a little deeper. And for me, that's what I feel like with the items that I have at home is like, I have a collection of stories that I can reconnect with. Like in my bedroom, I have this, um, Balinese cloth and I met with the artist that made it and she told me how it takes about a year because certain things can only be harvested at certain times of the year under a certain moon.

Christine: And then they have to do a blessing under another cycle of the moon. And then they like pick the dye during a certain time of year. So the whole process. It takes a very long time. And then she showed me, you know, like why she put a certain symbol in and what the symbol meant. And then I took a picture with her.

Christine: So now like that, that's a really special thing in my home. You know, it's not something that's going to get tucked away or thrown away. Like it really means something and, and I love those experiences. And the other thing that I think is interesting is When it's a part of your culture and you create beadwork or weaving, it's something for you that seems maybe easy or insignificant because it's a real normal part of your culture.

Christine: But when travelers come and they hear how things are made and they, or they see, or they try to make it themselves. And it's very difficult. I feel like that really empowers the artists to realize what they're doing is really special and important. It's an important in their culture. So I think like those two things, um, can work really well together to, to deepen the experience and create like a little bit more of an equal balance and

Phoebe: that's true. Like for me, uh, from I have, I have no, a lot of, uh, cultural attires from different communities. I got there and I fall in love with their, I mean, their clothes and I'm like their traditional clothes. And I'm like, I really want that. And I want to buy it. Okay. Some they insist they want to give me, but others, you know, like, I'm like, I want to buy it because you took time to buy the material, to put the beadwork together.

Phoebe: And, uh, that, me. I mean, it keeps the memories of that place, the conversation I had with that woman when buying the necklace and buying the piece of cloth as they showed me how to wear it. And I'm like, I carry a piece of that place with me and it creates a lot of memories. I think, uh, after some time, I'll have so many clothes from different tribes and I just love it because it keeps the memories alive.

Phoebe: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, mine is earrings and my my little girls will look at my earrings and they're from like all over the world, you know, but they they all have these stories and um, Um, I, I just, I love it to me. It feels really special. And so I just wanted to talk about that. The other thing that you mentioned was, um, uh, having female guides and drivers, and this is also something that comes up a lot on the podcast is the difficulty because there's maybe not access to training and education.

Christine: Like you said, safety can be a concern. Um, social norms are a concern. Uh, I'm just curious. How do you support women who come to you and say that they have an interest in one of these more male dominated segments of the industry?

Phoebe: uh, there have not been many, especially in this country, because, uh, one, we are used to driving the automatic vehicles and, you know, The safari vehicles are a stick, and so we don't have many women who do that, one, because it's hard. And, uh, I think that is something I would consider when I go to, uh, to the colleges that are undertaking tourism to encourage more women to aspire to be, uh, women guides and drivers.

Phoebe: Because we don't have, I mean, like, we can count. Like the ones that I have access to, they're not even five. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, and I think it's also really interesting because other other people I've talked to and much like you were saying is when people experience having a female guide that They kind of are, they tend to be the like story carriers. So I feel like they tell the story of a destination in a different way.

Christine: Not that I haven't had wonderful male guides in lots of countries, but especially if I have female travelers, that's also another, you know, another story, but. I just feel like that women tend to be kind of the wisdom carriers or the storytellers and the, the, the caretakers traditionally and so the way that they engage and tell the story of their place is very different.

Christine: And so I think it's really special and important to elevate them into

Phoebe: I agree. And I think that is one of the things I will put on my list to pursue and see how we can also work with the government in licensing women, uh, guides. Cause also it's a tall order to even have to access the license and also to have the owners of the vehicles to trust a woman with a vehicle.

Phoebe: It's also cause, I mean, again, it's the social norms, but it's something I believe that we can overcome.

Christine: Yeah, I know. I interviewed, um, Zina Ben Sheik from Intrepid Travel in Morocco, and that was something that she was really pushing for an initiative in their country to have more female guides because they realized the same as you. There just wasn't, there just wasn't enough. It's not that they couldn't hire them.

Christine: They weren't there to hire. And a lot of it had to do with accessibility to training and to resources. And so I think from a government level, it's important to look at how you can support women. So I love that you're thinking about the possibility of that. Um, well, one of the other things that I have seen in your work, um, and another I guess company or organization that you have is, uh, dignified children international.

Christine: And I thought I just saw a post of you taking a group of, of women to be part, participate in this program, but I would love for you to share what this program is and why it's important

Phoebe: Thank you very much even for looking at that. Uh, the Digging My Children International. It's a program that I began, uh, a while ago. That is in 2015 when I felt like I saw Children in my village. That is where I grew up in that looks like just like me a couple of years ago. And I felt like I needed to change their story so that they could have better opportunities, better exposure and to grow up in, you know, with confidence and change the narrative, uh, of, you know, lack and, uh, and you know, when you lack, when you grew up in poverty, it affects your confidence and then you don't have access to information.

Phoebe: And also your worldview is also blood. And so I began it, uh, as a Christmas Program where we were giving children Christmas gifts. 'cause while I was growing up, having Christmas gifts, like the special meals was such a, a hard thing to get. And so we began giving them that and they were very appreciative.

Phoebe: We moved to giving them uniform and shoes and then I. Felt like that was not enough and it wasn't sustainable. How about we do Children's Camps and create a platform where we bring all these Children together for a whole week of learning, mentorship, life skill development and also expose them to the world.

Phoebe: Just give them an opportunity to dream and also be creative and innovative. So we began with 40 Children and the camps have grown because we do it every month. School break. It's only that COVID affected our schedule and we started doing once a year. But from next year, we will resume to three times a year where all these Children come together and they learn for a whole week and they look forward to these camps.

Phoebe: And they have gained a lot of interest because now we like this year we had close to 600 Children. And, uh, like 60 of them were coming from Nairobi and from other parts of the country because they got very much interested about these camps and they have learned so much. You know, the takeaway is the confidence that they gain.

Phoebe: The world view is changed. They are more confident. They get better grades at school. school. They also assume leadership roles and then very few drop out of school because of teenage pregnancy or because of drugs. And this year I looked at those children and I was thankful that I was able to start something like that that has impacted on so many children so far.

Phoebe: Over 2000 children have gone through our children camps and, uh, a couple, like about 10 came back this year as volunteers to mentor those other children. So it's a cause that is very close to my heart and I connect it now to my business because it also gives the travelers who are willing to give back or rather to make an impact to be part of something that they love.

Phoebe: That is impactful to these Children. So I will come them to, uh, to be part of it. When we do it, they connect their travel during the dates that we have the camps and they come and they spend time. There is a time we hosted some students from University of Lugano in Switzerland. And what amazed me, they refused to sleep in hotel.

Phoebe: They said they want to sleep in the dormitories with the Children. Because it was a different experience and they wanted to be like them and see how it feels to wake up in the morning and take a bucket shower and also line up with the children for breakfast. That was amazing and I, I, that motivates me to keep going and keep doing that.

Christine: Um, I think it's so it's so incredible. Like you said, the the shift in confidence. is something that it just takes a moment and it really can change someone's trajectory. And I think we all have those moments in our life.

Christine: If you think back, you know, of one person that just saw you and believed in you and that made you believe in yourself and you could carry that forward. And so I think that programs like this are really, really important. And, um, I love that you're Creating that and tying that in with travel and bringing children from other countries to participate because that global connection and that cultural understanding.

Christine: I think children are just magic for that. Again, when I was in Nairobi, um, we were traveling with, um, a family that my boss at the time, she had been, she met the oldest son when he was like six. And then she had come back several times a year and visited them and was, um, paying for their, um, schooling and education through the, the church that was supporting the kids cause they had lost their parents.

Christine: And, you know, they took us to where they went to school. And then while we were there, the kids performed for us and sang. And then there was, Another family that came in from the, from the U S and they had young kids and they started playing the games with the kids and singing with the kids and like just watching their ease of integration with one another and that they weren't noticing, you know, that the, it didn't seem apparent that they were noticing any differences between each other, you know, and we were in a very, an area that was very poor and.

Christine: It just didn't, it didn't seem to cross their mind. They just saw each other as equal as children, like just playing and, and supporting each other. And like, that was a moment when I, when I thought if I ever have children, I will make sure they have this experience of just loving someone from another culture. because of their proximity. No other reason, you know, it's just, it's a really powerful and beautiful. So I love that, that you created that

Phoebe: Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, for sure. Children, you know, they have a clean slate where they don't know any judgment. They don't know any race. They don't know any tribe. They just sit there. love unconditionally and they integrate with each other. And my, I normally wish us as adults, we would be the same just like children.

Phoebe: And that is why these camps mean so much to me. Cause I see the children, they're just there with a clean plate. Like, you know, we are ready to receive the skills. We are happy to be in this world and let's just be happy. And yeah,

Christine: Yeah, it's, it's, it's really great. Um, okay. Well, we talked a little bit about mentorship, um, earlier, and you were talking about mentoring women in your community and in the industry, but I know that you also participated in the Women in Travel CIC Allyship Program. Um, Again, this is something I think that's come up here and there in the podcast, but I'm not sure that I've talked with another past participant.

Christine: So I want to hear from you about why you decided to take part in this, um, you know, what you learned and why you think allyship is important in advancing gender equity in the tourism

Phoebe: I think it is because for quite a long time, uh, the tourism industry has been male dominated. And, uh, most men have already known the hurdles, I mean, that they have jumped ahead of us. And so learning from them and, uh, you know, like through mentorship really means a lot. And it gives us, I mean, an opportunity to know that we can also do it when, you know, like when I was walking with Uh, the journey with my mentor, that is Jeremy Samson.

Phoebe: I mean, it's given me a lot of confidence that I can also get there. I can also make it, I can jump the hurdles. It's not just a male dominated industry. Even women can break the ceiling in the tourism industry. And so mentorship is very key. And I think when you, when it is offered by the male, I mean, like when you're a woman and, uh, the mentorship.

Phoebe: Your mentor is a, is a, is a male. I think, uh, it makes all the difference. That is how I felt because this is somebody who have gone, uh, through it and has a different perspective because we don't think the same way, uh, with men. And so I could be thinking this way and then he brings in a different perspective.

Phoebe: And I would say that really. Uh, to me, but at the same time, even I would say even the men that have been in the mentorship program when we go to these colleges and universities and as as women in tourism, they also listen to us and they also get different perspectives. So I would say both genders play a big role in the industry.

Phoebe: And so it's more of a mentoring each other and also collaborating. with one another to advance the tourism agenda.

Christine: Yeah. And I, I think, you know, the thing that you said there, that it really goes both ways. I have heard that a lot too from, um, other participants and male allies that, know, they, They learned a lot more than they would have expected or, you know, they, they thought they were coming in with a little bit of a job to do or, you know, a role to play, but didn't realize how much they would get out of the mentorship experience.

Christine: And I think that happens with all mentorship programs. Um, pairings. You know, we learn a lot from the people were mentoring because they have, like you said, different perspectives. And if you're at different stages in your career, you just might see things differently or if you're in different areas of the industry.

Christine: So again, I think it's a vital piece in Growing the industry. Um, I, I'm curious if there was like anything that really stood out to you as far as, you know, what you learned or what you were able to use to create a change in your business.

Phoebe: I'd say, uh, the, the idea of incorporating sustainability was, I mean, came out big and I continue learning on how to position myself or position my business. As a sustainable business, uh, because still it's not popular. And, uh, especially when I come from a country where it's no, no, you know, the epic safaris and all of that.

Phoebe: And I'm trying to sell something different or something beyond the safaris. So what I learned was how to communicate that to my travelers so that I'm able to attract the right, uh, travelers into my business. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, and I think it's also interesting because, you know, while you say maybe it's not as popular when you're focusing already on conservation and community, like you're already bringing in so much of, you know, the community. the foundation of sustainable travel because you're inherently looking at equity and you're looking at how to elevate local communities.

Christine: And, um, I think that that's always interesting to me is that maybe small businesses or companies in, um, Um, areas where sustainability isn't a mainstream conversation already have sustainable travel businesses. They just don't, like you said, know how to communicate it or didn't realize it because it's just a part of

Phoebe: Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Christine: Yeah. Or, you know, I'll, I will be traveling and you'll see maybe a really interesting. environmental, like ingenuity. You just see someone who created a whole new way of purifying water or heating their home, and it's all being done in a sustainable way out

Phoebe: Mm

Christine: but like the innovation, and they're never going to have a thing that says, we're a green, you know, hotel or homestay because It wouldn't occur to them, but they're the ones actually 

Christine: doing it already. 

Phoebe: is very true. Actually, communities are the innovators of sustainable tourism. They are the greatest conservationists, but they will never be recognized, or rather, they are, I mean, nobody recognizes that. They don't have a stamp on their Homes or on their work. But I think, uh, as travelers and as the actors in this industry, we need to recognize the much work that is put in by the local communities.

Phoebe: They may not be in the spaces that we are in, you know, to shout it to people and to tell the world or even get the awards. They are not in that space, but I recognize that they are the greatest conservationist. They are the. I mean, they are the custodians of this wildlife, of conservation, of innovation on sustainability of tourism.

Phoebe: I mean, you would be amazed when I interact with the locals, uh, when I go to like Kipia, where I have an MOU with a couple of community conservancies. And when I'm discussing with them, they tell me how, uh, how they conserve the environment by, I mean, they set aside as a community. And they say, uh, for this.

Phoebe: number of months we will be grazing in this area as we allow the grass on this other area to grow so that we don't degrade the environment in this area. They don't have that written anywhere but they have agreed as a community but nobody will ever recognize that. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

Christine: I, it's so amazing. And like you said, it's just, again, it's just like, it's how, how people already know, especially that have maybe not been influenced by outside behaviors. Like this is a way that they've been practicing for such a long time that it's, doesn't seem unique or special because it is just the, the way that things have been done, but they've been done that way for so long because they are the most sustainable and have allowed them to have continuous use of land.

Christine: I was just in Panama and I was meeting with some Someone who had moved to an area and they were working to create a farm and, and had agriculture, you know, and they were fighting the jungle and fighting the jungle and fighting the jungle and like trying to spray weeds and all these things. And they're like, we're never going to win.

Christine: And someone's like, yes, you'll never win because the jungle has been here long before you. And then he just had this aha moment. And he's like, okay, what if I think like the jungle? What if we look at how other things are being done? What if we look at farmers in the past? And he started putting those things into practice.

Christine: And he said, all of a sudden, Everything worked because they were taking traditional values and traditional methods and implementing them instead of trying to use these modern, efficient ways. And now, because they've done that, they are sustainable, they're green, they can get the stamps and the labels, but they just took wisdom from local communities and

Phoebe: That is true. Okay,

Christine: Um, well, I have really, really enjoyed our conversation today, Phoebe. I have just our rapid fire questions for us to, to wrap up our time

Phoebe: me too, I have enjoyed.

Christine: Um, thank you. Uh, well, I have the first question is what are you reading right

Phoebe: Currently, I'm reading the diary of a CEO.

Christine: Perfect. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you

Phoebe: Um, workout gear.

Christine: Um, to sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there. Where would you still love to sojourn?

Phoebe: Sorry, repeat?

Christine: Um, travel, is there somewhere that you would love to travel and travel intentionally and slowly as if you live there?

Phoebe: Uh, Lamu, in my country.

Christine: Oh, I love that you mentioned somewhere in your own country. Um, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?

Phoebe: Sorry?

Christine: Uh, what is something you eat that reminds you of a place that you have been?

Phoebe: Um, well, that's interesting, because I think I'm not big, that's food, right?

Christine: Yes.

Phoebe: Uh, the fact that I'm thinking, I think I'm not big on food. Um, I would say currently salmon, because I eat a lot of salmon and oz in the States, and salmon is not accessible here in Kenya, so. Whenever I get it in one of the big hotels, it reminds me of my trip to the U. S.

Christine: Um, who was a person who encouraged you to travel? I know we haven't talked a lot about your personal travels, but is there someone who inspired your own travels?

Phoebe: It was my boss in the development world because, uh, she kept, um, I mean, she's the one who encouraged me to travel because she always sent donors and sponsors that I had to take to where the children were. And that really inspired me because it gave me an opportunity to tour my own country because the children were spread all over and so that really inspired me to travel.

Christine: Yeah, it just reminded me of one of the things I had thought when I first started my company. Um, and I, when I went to Uganda, And, you know, was meeting, was meeting with people in Kampala and in the cities and, you know, they were saying, I was going to Queen Elizabeth Park and a few other places. And, you know, they said, Oh, I've never, I've never been there.

Christine: And the same thing happened when I was in Nairobi and was traveling and people were like, Oh, I've never been there. And I thought, what a, what a shame and what an example of privilege. And I always thought when I, when my company gets big enough, I want to be able to bring, you know, someone in the industry or someone who wouldn't travel to see their own country with me on one of my tours, because I just think, yeah, it feels like a way to really create equity and also to create a different relationship for someone in their own country.

Christine: That

Phoebe: It's true. Actually, that's, that's interesting and I would really love you to do that in my country. Now I'm being selfish because we have a number, we have, uh, Nairobi is the only city with a national park globally. And don't be surprised. We have so many people who live in Nairobi, but they've never been to the park.

Phoebe: So, you know, coming and I mean, going there, I try as much as I can, especially with the underprivileged. privileged children to create an opportunity for them to go to the park or even to the museum, but we still have so many of them that have not been able because for you to go to the park, you need a car, you need a vehicle.

Phoebe: I mean, and then also it costs money. So if you don't have that money, you don't have the privilege to go and see the animals. Yeah. But okay. The government has really tried to subsidize the cost. But still we have a number of them who cannot afford to get into the park.

Christine: Yeah, well, we'll, we'll throw this out here for any of the industry professionals listening that I think this is a huge opportunity that we could have. And I also think our travelers, um, would also learn from bringing people from the countries they're in, out on expeditions with them. So, um, who knows, maybe we're, we're, we're becoming a catalyst for something

Phoebe: That is true.

Christine: Okay. Uh, the last two questions I have, one is if you could take an adventure with one person who is fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?

Phoebe: If I could take an adventure,

Christine: With any person who might inspire you.

Phoebe: well, no, I have started to, but I think it would be my son, actually my two sons, because they, they really, they're adventurers and they're very inquisitive, especially the first born. And, uh, yeah, I would go on an adventure with them because they will keep me on my toes to answer many questions and they'll, and the way they get mesmerized.

Phoebe: I think that is quite inspiring. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, I love seeing the world through my children's eyes because they see things that we just think we don't. Are boring or we miss and they, they

Phoebe: Yeah.

Christine: magical. Uh, so the last question, soul of travel is a space for celebrating women in the industry. Who is one woman you admire and would love to recognize today?

Phoebe: I admire my former boss. Uh, she is called Isis Nyongo. Oh, did you say in the industry?

Christine: Yeah, but it's okay. You can recognize anyone.

Phoebe: Yeah. Yeah. Because, uh, she really inspired me to build my business. She is a woman in tech, but when I was working for her, that was my last job before I got fully involved in my business. And so while I was at it, she still encouraged me to do the children comps to run my own business while I was working for her.

Phoebe: I've never seen a woman who is so secure with herself. Like she is because she didn't she didn't feel threatened that I was working for her. And at the same time running my business and running the non for profit company, she kept encouraging me to dream bigger and also to Go on my own. So I recognize isis NY for being such an inspiration to me in business.

Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much. And what a powerful statement to end on. Like how, how incredibly impactful we could all be if someone just kept encouraging us to dream bigger and not worrying about whether or not that impacts our own success, that we know that there's enough room for everyone to be like the brightest version of themselves.

Christine: I think that's a really wise

Phoebe: Thank you.

Christine: Yeah. Well, thank you again so much for being here. I'm glad that we got to spend this time together. As I mentioned, we were on, we're on calls every once in a while with each other, but we haven't had a lot of time to connect. So I

Phoebe: Well, I also enjoyed this. You really inspire me By, I mean, collecting the stories and highlighting, I mean, the success of women and also putting them out there. This is quite inspiring and encouraging and thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to do this.

Christine: You're so welcome. Thank you.